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you create the world of the dream how

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could I ever acquire enough detail to

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make them think that it's reality dreams

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they feel real while we're in them right

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let me ask you a question you never

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really remember the beginning of the

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dream do you you always wind up right in

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the middle of what's going on I guess

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yeah so how did we end up here well we

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just came from there

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think about it Ariadne how did you get

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here

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why are you right now that's from

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Inception a movie that explores a lot of

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the topics we're going to be talking

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about today in terms of dreaming lucid

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dreaming

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the extended consciousness realms of

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dreaming and what those might mean for

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how we could engineer or explore those

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with various kinds of technology our

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guest today is lucid dream expert

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Charlie Morley and I'm also joined by

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Richard Cox from deep state

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consciousness podcast here's a clip when

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he was watching one of these people in

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the lucid dream trying to prove lucid

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dreaming at one point he saw their eyes

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flicking left right left right really

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kind of synchronous and he woke them up

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and so what were you dreaming about

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oh I dream about a tennis match and he

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was like oh that's cool so he made the

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first discovery the eyes physically

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correspond to what you're dreaming about

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then then he thought okay right so maybe

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I can send a signal a kind of a Morse

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code signal from the lucid dream state

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to the waiting's they saying hey guys

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I'm in here I'm doing the test I'm doing

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the experiment and he managed to do that

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and I said so how did it work and he

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said oh I spent eight hours looking at

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this he said suddenly on the on the

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favorite when Tim Dean don't doom and I

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said to him like how did it feel when

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you saw those eye movements come through

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when Charlie and those movies when

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they're in the NASA control room and

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they finally get there the other thing

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from Mars and they all give each other

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high fives

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I said yeah anyone it was like that but

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I had no one to high-five and I kind of

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leant over and gave him that we like

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that he missed we had this like awkward

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missed high-five and he went oh well

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forty years too late but thank you

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I will say about entities because I

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realize I gave you the Jungian view on

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entities I gave the Buddhist view on

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entities I didn't actually give you my

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personal view on entities which it's

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like yeah man anyone who's had like a

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DMT experience or like moving into kind

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of psilocybin therapy or ayahuasca or

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something these are these are not

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internally generated experiences like

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when people are all having the same

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experience of mother ayahuasca coming

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over them and she appears in the same

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way and often is offering the same

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guidance you thinking this is existing

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did welcome to skeptical where we

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explore controversial science and

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spirituality with leading researchers

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thinkers and their critics I'm your host

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Alex Secours and today we welcome

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Charlie Morley to skeptical Charlie is a

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lucid dreaming expert having authored

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several best-selling books on the topic

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and conducted I don't know at this point

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probably I'm sure Charlie hundreds of

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workshops around the world in which he

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helps people develop this skill and then

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apply it to their life and Charlie is

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we're gonna find out is also one of

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those really interesting guys who has

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integrated kind of the best of Western

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understandings of not just spirituality

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but maybe this science we could say he

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has the bona fides in terms of studying

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Tibetan Buddhism and really immersing

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himself in it he's a terrific public

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speaker he has a great TED talk out

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there which will also kind of want to

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talk about so it's great to have him

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here on sceptical I think he's going to

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be really good and we also have riding

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shotgun but we'll probably drag him into

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this conversation as well

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Richard Cox from the deep state

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consciousness podcast I was just

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explaining to Charlie that that's how I

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ran across Charlie's work which is

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really terrific on lucid dreaming and

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then Richard's been helping me with this

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new book why evil matters and I said hey

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man

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all this stuff is Charlie is talking

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about is directly syncing up with all

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these things I'm hearing from people of

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these other traditions of course that's

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the way it's supposed to work so I

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wanted to talk with

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Charlie and I just invited Richard along

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because I'm sure he'll have some

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interesting insights as well so Charlie

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and Richard welcome thanks for joining

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me thanks man thanks have anything Alex

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so I gave people kind of a thumbnail

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sketch of the background Charlie please

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tell us more about who you are and how

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you came to this work yes so I started

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teaching lucid dreaming about 11 years

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ago I've been into it for a lot longer I

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started lucid dreaming in my teens so

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like when I was 16 17 so about 20 years

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ago and yeah we're just something I I

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got into I read some books geeked out

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about it was into it my team because it

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seemed like a really cool way to like

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get access to this virtual reality

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simulation of your own psychology where

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you could do whatever you wanted so at

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16 17 all I want to do is have loads of

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sex so the first like two years of my

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lucid dream experience a lucid dream for

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those who who are wondering is the dream

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way that you're dreaming as you're

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dreaming and then you can direct the

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dream will so 60 and I knew what I

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wouldn't say directly to do right I was

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like pop girls come to me and then all

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these hot girls would appear at home all

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this great sex that I wasn't having in

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real life because I was at sixteen right

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and skateboarding I did a lot of

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skateboarding and weirdly it since then

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in the last ten years there's been a

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whole wealth of studies showing that you

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can get better at sports by practicing

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and lucid dreaming and I got really good

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at skateboarding so maybe it was down to

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those neural pathways fire him off the

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other thing not so I didn't get very

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good at that but still have lots of fun

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so I was kind of messing about with

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lucid dreaming for those first couple of

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years and then I get into Buddhism when

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about 18 19 read a couple of books by

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the Dalai Lama had a big kind of

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near-death experience I wouldn't say

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like drugs and psychedelics and had a

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near-death experience from that that

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then made me look not just at Buddhism

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but specifically Tibetan Buddhism and

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then I found out that not only their

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into death their into dreams and they

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had this thing called dream yoga which

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is like this whole collection of

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practices which have lucid dream

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training at their base which used the

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lucid dream state to explore the nature

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of reality to prepare for death and

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dying and to do your spiritual practice

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in your sleep so I was like wow okay

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these these dudes sound cool

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I sort of hang out with these and while

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hanging out taking teachings from these

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Lamas and teachers and then I ended up

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living in a buddhist center like eight

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years which was kind of quite immersive

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experience and then yeah got asked by my

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buddhist teacher when i was 25 to start

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giving workshops and stuff and yeah then

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wrote some books about it and been

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running workshops and retreats ever

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since so you have some terrific books

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out there and i want to let people know

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these books are from a major publisher

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Hay House and you have some recordings

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out there as well they're really super

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accessible like price-wise they're

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accessible you get some of these books

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for nothing or Kindle unlimited yeah

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they're on some crazy look down sale

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they're like 99 cents or something on

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Kindle yeah I'm telling you folks go and

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grab this stuff scoop it up and then

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also check out Charlie's TED talk

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recorded here in my hometown of San

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Diego a few years ago but just great

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stuff what I'm hoping we can do is

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direct folks to go do that and then find

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out about this guy if you have any

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interest at all in developing the skill

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he offers workshops and now with the

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social distancing thing a lot of online

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one-on-one coaching all that is

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available so with that I guess I'm

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asking for permission to kind of jump

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past maybe some of that and get into

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some of the deeper philosophical stuff

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that you guys talked about that you and

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Richard talked about and in particular

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some of these parallels in terms of what

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this stuff really means I love the way

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you start off and talk about the

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realness of hey if you can loose a dream

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well I can't I do that

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can I go have sex or the other thing why

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can't I go around and do things or spy

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and be all these things that people do

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or flying and all that stuff and I think

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that immediately once you get past that

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just like you said it launches us into a

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bunch of deeper questions about the

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nature of reality about the nature of

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evil which is something you explore in

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your book one of the books I had up

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there on the on the website is dreaming

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through darkness which is Sam I guess we

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could talk about so with your permission

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let's

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gonna jump into the deep waters of what

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this stuff really is telling us about

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the larger nature of reality and in

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particular what it's telling us about

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darkness evil shadow I guess we have to

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start by defining what those mean to you

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mm-hmm

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yes okay well let's look at that time

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the shadow which is what V and my latest

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book dreaming through darkness is about

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so Carl Jung popularized the term shadow

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of course he didn't invent the concept

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the concept of a shadow side to the

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psyche to the soul to the mind has been

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around since since humans started

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talking about this ever writing about

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this stuff at least but Carl Jung

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defined the shadow as the parts of the

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unconscious mind that we have rejected

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denied or disowned he described as the

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dark side of the human psyche but Cruz

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and this is the crucial bit the dark

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side the human psyche , but not dark

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meaning bad evil or malign dark meaning

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yet to be illuminated and that's crucial

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to understand in the shadows not bad

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it's not some sort of untapped source of

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evil or harm simply that which we hide

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from ourselves and others so if we think

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what are we hide from ourselves not it's

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okay

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that may well contain aspects which are

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harmful Russell's mother you might hide

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our our greed our hatred our prejudice

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our racism

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our internet search history whatever you

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we hide this stuff from others our shame

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our fear but there's also an aspects the

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called the golden shadow I mean young

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never school it never referred to this

276
00:10:21,010 --> 00:10:19,280
concept the golden shadow but there's a

277
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famous quote from his teachings where he

278
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says the shadow is 90% pure gold and

279
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from that the post unions have this idea

280
00:10:29,650 --> 00:10:28,400
of the golden shadow and the golden

281
00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:29,660
shadow is actually exactly the same

282
00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:32,030
definition that which we repress denial

283
00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:34,550
disown but it's the parts we repressed

284
00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:36,020
and I am besson which are more overtly

285
00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:38,030
beneficial for example our hidden

286
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:40,940
talents our sexuality our spiritual side

287
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I mean there may well be your listeners

288
00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:44,570
listening now I would ask them this

289
00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:47,630
question do you ever hide your esoteric

290
00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:49,430
side from your friends or family for

291
00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:51,710
fear of being labeled to woo if the

292
00:10:56,140 --> 00:10:54,590
answer is yes that's golden shadow your

293
00:10:58,330 --> 00:10:56,150
spiritual side something that couldn't

294
00:10:59,800 --> 00:10:58,340
be more more healthy if you tried the

295
00:11:01,360 --> 00:10:59,810
aspect of yourself that wants to grow

296
00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:01,370
the ones with Spruill your psyche

297
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,080
spiritual growth and yet we hide it from

298
00:11:07,060 --> 00:11:05,360
others why exactly the same reason we

299
00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:07,070
hide the dark shadow fear of rejection

300
00:11:11,980 --> 00:11:09,230
from the tribe which back in the day was

301
00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:11,990
tantamount to uh to death it's this kind

302
00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:14,150
of rejection former that we have this

303
00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:17,180
trans humanistic rejection trauma that

304
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:19,100
permeates all of our minds plays out

305
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:20,810
when we hide our shadow of our golden

306
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:22,970
shadow from others and even the dark

307
00:11:26,769 --> 00:11:24,650
shadow isn't necessarily bad it's just

308
00:11:29,530 --> 00:11:26,779
parts of us which were repressed but if

309
00:11:31,329 --> 00:11:29,540
we can be aware of the shadow what we

310
00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:31,339
don't know about controls uh so by being

311
00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:33,350
aware of the shadow simply by knowing

312
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:35,390
that it exists by learning about our

313
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:37,310
personal shadow we remove a lot of the

314
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:39,920
control that that unconscious shadow

315
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:41,930
material has over us so shadow work is

316
00:11:46,090 --> 00:11:43,490
inherently healthy it's good thing to do

317
00:11:47,769 --> 00:11:46,100
and young another kind of famous thing

318
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:47,779
he said was those who claim to have no

319
00:11:51,550 --> 00:11:49,610
shadow are the most dangerous people on

320
00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:51,560
earth because there's no hope without

321
00:11:55,570 --> 00:11:53,750
this awareness right well you know that

322
00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:55,580
that creeps into some different

323
00:12:01,360 --> 00:11:57,650
territory though doesn't it which in

324
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:01,370
kind of classic Jungian fashion where

325
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:03,290
you're kind of marching along with him

326
00:12:07,390 --> 00:12:05,210
and then he says something like that and

327
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:07,400
we go well what the hell would that mean

328
00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:10,850
what would we have to fear and it would

329
00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:13,300
be dangerous unless there's something

330
00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:16,100
external beyond the shadow and I think

331
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:17,900
that plays into something that I did

332
00:12:22,930 --> 00:12:20,570
want to get into and it comes up in your

333
00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:22,940
TED talk and it invariably comes up

334
00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:24,620
whenever we talk about these topics and

335
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:27,230
that is the integration between the

336
00:12:32,890 --> 00:12:30,320
Western understanding of consciousness

337
00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:32,900
and the obviously limited understanding

338
00:12:37,390 --> 00:12:35,750
which we have to dance around so I get

339
00:12:40,570 --> 00:12:37,400
it you're up there doing a TED talk and

340
00:12:43,150 --> 00:12:40,580
I've talked to a bunch of people Caltech

341
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:43,160
physicist who says yeah I got up there

342
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:44,570
do the TED talk and they coached me

343
00:12:48,430 --> 00:12:46,730
beforehand kind of don't go into this we

344
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:48,440
don't like this I love everything you

345
00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:50,690
say just can you kind of say it kind of

346
00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:53,180
like this yeah and at one point of your

347
00:13:00,040 --> 00:12:56,510
TED talk you go and up here as if this

348
00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:00,050
stuff is in our brain physically I know

349
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:02,500
you probably don't think that's true

350
00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:04,850
scientifically it isn't true Buddhist

351
00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:07,100
wise we know it's we're past that but we

352
00:13:11,890 --> 00:13:09,920
have to kind of play that play that game

353
00:13:13,580 --> 00:13:11,900
and in the same way Jung is kind of

354
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:13,590
playing that game and that

355
00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:16,050
all our shadow it's our internal work

356
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:18,060
but there's some dangerous out

357
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:19,920
there if you go outside of it as well so

358
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:23,370
do you want to speak to that at all in

359
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:27,330
terms of how we navigate that in the

360
00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:29,040
scientific community and then how we

361
00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:32,870
navigate this evil as it maybe is

362
00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:37,470
existing in an external form yes I mean

363
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:39,510
straight off the bat I don't believe in

364
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:42,690
any objective existing external evil I

365
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:44,700
don't even believe in evil as a concept

366
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:48,480
I believe in traumatized people acting

367
00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:50,940
out unintegrated trauma which manifests

368
00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:53,220
is seeming human evil but as far as like

369
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:55,230
an objectively existing evil or kind of

370
00:13:59,900 --> 00:13:57,570
satanic archetype yeah I don't really

371
00:14:01,580 --> 00:13:59,910
believe in that I believe that there is

372
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:01,590
probably in the collective unconscious

373
00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:05,850
and archetypal energy or safety because

374
00:14:09,170 --> 00:14:07,470
so many people have believed and

375
00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:09,180
projected this belief answered the

376
00:14:13,370 --> 00:14:11,430
collective that that this thing exists

377
00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:13,380
that are probably best just as so many

378
00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:14,460
is it not people who believe that

379
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:16,740
there's a God concept that that probably

380
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:20,490
exists too but because something seems

381
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:23,010
to exist doesn't mean that it's real but

382
00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:24,540
then what is real here it's it's

383
00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:26,760
something can be real and not true it's

384
00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:28,140
like the Buddhist ideas of these last

385
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:29,880
six realms of existence but I talked to

386
00:14:33,950 --> 00:14:32,490
Richard about these hell realms and they

387
00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:33,960
have all the descriptions of these like

388
00:14:37,550 --> 00:14:36,270
Hell like a 60 in Hell realms but

389
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:37,560
actually if you and maybe short

390
00:14:40,190 --> 00:14:39,090
descriptions of how they feel and stuff

391
00:14:41,450 --> 00:14:40,200
but if you look at them they're all

392
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:41,460
psychological corabeth's their

393
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:43,530
descriptions of depression I mean one of

394
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:45,210
the brilliant discreet the hell realm

395
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:48,450
says you have molten lead poured through

396
00:14:51,860 --> 00:14:50,010
your mouth till your limbs are too heavy

397
00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:51,870
to move now anyone who's been in that

398
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:53,790
deep depression of grief when you've

399
00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:55,710
lost someone you love and you're in bed

400
00:14:59,330 --> 00:14:58,050
and you lift your arms are so heavy with

401
00:15:01,220 --> 00:14:59,340
depression you can't even move them

402
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:01,230
that's the hell realm you're in that

403
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:03,480
hell realm or the hell realm of Traum or

404
00:15:06,590 --> 00:15:04,770
the hell realm of anger

405
00:15:09,890 --> 00:15:06,600
these aren't kind of places objectively

406
00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:09,900
existing their shades of suffering which

407
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:12,300
we can experience in the mind but then

408
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:14,970
as a caveat to that they also say the

409
00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:17,490
hell realms don't exist out there but

410
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:20,340
then neither does this this waking life

411
00:15:23,810 --> 00:15:21,600
so from a Buddhist whatever the hell

412
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:23,820
realms are as real as this waking life

413
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:26,720
but also as unreal is this waking life

414
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:29,110
and then I get way out of my depth now

415
00:15:32,889 --> 00:15:31,250
do you need to speak to some Buddhist

416
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:32,899
Lama or something I know I can

417
00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:34,370
understand what they're getting at their

418
00:15:41,139 --> 00:15:38,569
bottom I'm trying right to certain

419
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:41,149
extent that's the dilemma because this

420
00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:45,170
is where we all live we all live in this

421
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:47,540
reality and whether it's a constructed

422
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:51,860
reality or not that this is where we

423
00:15:55,929 --> 00:15:53,810
reside in this is where we have to kind

424
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:55,939
of try and navigate whether it's taking

425
00:16:01,360 --> 00:15:59,120
taking lucid dreaming classes to further

426
00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:01,370
our spiritual development whatever the

427
00:16:07,929 --> 00:16:04,600
hell that would mean or whether it means

428
00:16:11,319 --> 00:16:07,939
saying the making the sign of the Cross

429
00:16:13,569 --> 00:16:11,329
over your chest or burning sage in your

430
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:13,579
ring to clear out spirits all these

431
00:16:21,579 --> 00:16:16,910
things are part of our reality that I

432
00:16:22,809 --> 00:16:21,589
guess I'm trying to if not kind of

433
00:16:25,119 --> 00:16:22,819
wrestle to the ground

434
00:16:27,970 --> 00:16:25,129
to at least draw attention to the fact

435
00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:27,980
that there are enough people from

436
00:16:32,829 --> 00:16:29,870
different traditions talking about these

437
00:16:36,220 --> 00:16:32,839
that we may be Auto at least look at the

438
00:16:38,170 --> 00:16:36,230
extent to which science has completely

439
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:38,180
abdicated its responsibility for

440
00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:40,370
exploring us so I do not have a

441
00:16:44,350 --> 00:16:42,500
scientific understanding of where we

442
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:44,360
would even begin to talk about what evil

443
00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:46,370
is because science can't even talk about

444
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:48,920
extended consciousness so I'm always

445
00:16:53,379 --> 00:16:51,740
keen to finding people who are talking

446
00:16:55,389 --> 00:16:53,389
about the way that you're talking about

447
00:16:58,540 --> 00:16:55,399
it is great so let me do this let me

448
00:17:00,970 --> 00:16:58,550
just oppose what you're saying with a

449
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:00,980
guest that I just had on the show who I

450
00:17:05,470 --> 00:17:03,110
think is really a pretty interesting guy

451
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:05,480
and I think they'll offer a springboard

452
00:17:13,779 --> 00:17:07,089
into talking about a lot of this stuff

453
00:17:15,970 --> 00:17:13,789
this guy's name is Tom Zinser mm-hmm and

454
00:17:17,770 --> 00:17:15,980
Tom is a clinical psychologist he's been

455
00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:17,780
a clinical psychologist for like 30

456
00:17:23,409 --> 00:17:20,150
years thousands of patients and he got

457
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:23,419
into doing some of this spirit work some

458
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:27,770
of this darkness work with his clients

459
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:31,010
in the form of ego separation I think it

460
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:32,210
has direct parallels to what you're

461
00:17:36,490 --> 00:17:33,650
talking about let's listen to what he

462
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:36,500
has to say the distinction that you make

463
00:17:42,779 --> 00:17:40,330
between darkness and evil well

464
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:42,789
I have to go back again and emphasize

465
00:17:49,019 --> 00:17:45,610
the clinical nature because all of these

466
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:49,029
start with the clients own story my work

467
00:17:56,220 --> 00:17:52,330
is basically identifying those things

468
00:17:59,009 --> 00:17:56,230
within person that blocks the light so

469
00:18:01,919 --> 00:17:59,019
the protocol developed for the ego state

470
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:01,929
system make the contact communicate with

471
00:18:07,889 --> 00:18:04,809
them make it safe for them to receive

472
00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:07,899
this light love energy once they receive

473
00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:12,190
it as I said 99% say whippy I love this

474
00:18:16,919 --> 00:18:13,630
I don't want to be without it

475
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:16,929
and then they will move through the

476
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:18,850
sharing and release or what happened to

477
00:18:25,769 --> 00:18:22,840
them for a spirit attachment outside

478
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:25,779
entity it's a different protocol they

479
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:28,240
don't belong with the person they need

480
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:31,470
to leave and in the worst cases

481
00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:33,850
protocols designed to get to a point

482
00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:38,440
where they could be removed okay so

483
00:18:44,159 --> 00:18:41,860
here's the point and Soyoung is also a

484
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:44,169
clinician right it's interesting to look

485
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:45,820
at that history he's meeting with people

486
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:47,700
and at one point I think Young says

487
00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:51,130
whether these spirit entities are real

488
00:18:59,639 --> 00:18:55,809
or not I've found it most effective to

489
00:19:04,320 --> 00:18:59,649
assume and act as if they are mmm and

490
00:19:06,570 --> 00:19:04,330
now I think what tom is saying from as a

491
00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:06,580
clinician here's a guy who reached a

492
00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:08,200
point in his practice where he was ready

493
00:19:12,570 --> 00:19:10,630
to give up his hypnotherapy work because

494
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:12,580
people weren't getting better but when

495
00:19:16,649 --> 00:19:15,130
he connected with the spirit guide who

496
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:16,659
said here's how you have to work with

497
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,130
these people and they really do so in

498
00:19:23,639 --> 00:19:20,799
some cases have spirit possession or

499
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:23,649
spirit interference and that that's

500
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:27,130
really what's going on that these people

501
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:28,809
started getting better in a lot more

502
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:32,470
ways so again I'd I'd kind of throw it

503
00:19:38,399 --> 00:19:34,690
out there Charlie where do we kind of

504
00:19:42,750 --> 00:19:38,409
get into that blurry zone of what is

505
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:42,760
real real and what is real in terms of

506
00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:46,330
this creation that we have in this plane

507
00:19:50,159 --> 00:19:48,760
of existence yeah great question

508
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:50,169
and if you look at some of the research

509
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:53,200
on my exorcisms they work really well

510
00:19:56,910 --> 00:19:54,880
if the client believes that they have a

511
00:19:58,770 --> 00:19:56,920
spirit within them and if you do like an

512
00:20:00,570 --> 00:19:58,780
exorcism and you really go for and you

513
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:00,580
enter into that what I was sayin during

514
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:02,170
the site into the psychosis of the

515
00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:04,330
client and the exorcism can work right

516
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:06,190
it doesn't necessarily mean though that

517
00:20:09,390 --> 00:20:07,810
there was an externally existing

518
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:09,400
objective embassy there in the first

519
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:11,890
place though I mean I don't know does it

520
00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:14,950
mean there wasn't an external spirit

521
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:16,420
yeah I don't think it matters if there

522
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:19,210
was I think if it is like an internal

523
00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:23,010
psychosis its manifesting as some I mean

524
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:26,200
if an element of the shadow becomes so

525
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:28,810
split off it will kind of take on its

526
00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:30,250
own consciousness I mean young were

527
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:32,140
saying this right and that will seem

528
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:33,730
like an external entity just like in

529
00:20:37,470 --> 00:20:35,260
your lucid dream you can meet the shadow

530
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:37,480
and it will people say no no that wasn't

531
00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:39,760
my shadow that was an external demon

532
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:40,540
anything I say

533
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:43,120
that's the calling card of the shadow it

534
00:20:46,530 --> 00:20:44,980
will it won't seem like it's part of you

535
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:46,540
that's the point because it has been

536
00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:48,490
split off so again you kind of loop

537
00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:50,740
around him and well where do we go here

538
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:52,660
I mean the Buddhist point of view is if

539
00:20:56,430 --> 00:20:54,010
you look at the Buddhist view and demons

540
00:20:58,490 --> 00:20:56,440
right I love this stuff

541
00:21:01,080 --> 00:20:58,500
magic lab driven is a famous female

542
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:01,090
practitioner of the 10th century she was

543
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:03,370
called the mistress of demons and she's

544
00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:04,930
asked by her son mother what is this

545
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:07,120
demon lee teuk oh he says all my son

546
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:09,520
when I talk of demons I do not mean some

547
00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:11,470
small black creature who terrifies all

548
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:13,630
who look upon it when I talk of demons I

549
00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:15,010
talk of anything that prevents your

550
00:21:19,170 --> 00:21:17,800
experience of freedom I think wow so

551
00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:19,180
when we use the term like the demon of

552
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:22,030
my addiction the demon of my grief the

553
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:24,370
demon of my hatred we're kind of using

554
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,450
Buddhist terminology there very

555
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:27,520
correctly it's not the dissing sternal

556
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:28,990
embassy it's anything within us that

557
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:30,910
prevents our experience of freedom and

558
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:32,670
yet if you look at the practice or

559
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:34,960
exercising those demons within us in

560
00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:36,880
Buddhism it is a very jewy list ik

561
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:39,220
practice where you allow that demon of

562
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:40,930
an addiction perhaps to be personified

563
00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:43,510
and you imagine offering yourself to

564
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:45,640
that demon actually it's very kind of

565
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:46,960
esoteric then you want the parts of your

566
00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:48,640
body and you kind of dine with demons

567
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:50,230
you break bread with the enemy as it

568
00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:51,910
were so there's that there is this

569
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,180
external personification of the demon

570
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:57,520
but simply as a way for you to interact

571
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:00,400
with it in dialogue and no point is ever

572
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:01,930
said we should believe those demons

573
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:03,910
actually exist and again you look like

574
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:04,450
Miller

575
00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:06,130
one of the most famous sayings again he

576
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:08,740
says there are no demons there was only

577
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:11,200
the demon that prevents freedom existing

578
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:13,360
in one's mind so the Buddhist view this

579
00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:15,190
kind of non-dualistic view is there is

580
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:18,070
no that there are no external demons but

581
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:20,220
it can be a very good idea sometimes to

582
00:22:24,870 --> 00:22:22,930
externalize or personify an elements of

583
00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:24,880
our own trauma so that we can dialogue

584
00:22:27,930 --> 00:22:26,590
with it and that's why chair therapy

585
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:27,940
works so well that's why the feeding

586
00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:29,380
your demons practice of sorts from ally

587
00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:30,820
already works so well that's why this

588
00:22:34,530 --> 00:22:32,470
chip rackets within Tibetan Buddhism

589
00:22:36,510 --> 00:22:34,540
seems to work so well but the view is

590
00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:36,520
there isn't any external embassy there

591
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:38,380
oh but one more thing that that guy said

592
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:40,570
that was really cool where he talked

593
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:42,790
about what was blocking the light and I

594
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:44,530
love this idea where shadow work both in

595
00:22:47,130 --> 00:22:45,970
the Buddhist view of shadow work

596
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:47,140
although you can't really say that

597
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:48,130
because there isn't a concept of the

598
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:49,600
shadow and Buddhism but the Buddhist

599
00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:51,550
view of working with harmful possibly

600
00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:54,190
harmful energies within us a shadow is

601
00:22:59,070 --> 00:22:56,470
an epiphenomenon caused by an object

602
00:23:00,990 --> 00:22:59,080
blocking the light so we've got a source

603
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:01,000
of light we've got an object blocking

604
00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:02,890
the light and then we have a shadow and

605
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:04,870
that shadow will often be in the shape

606
00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:06,640
of the object that is blocking the light

607
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:09,070
so as shadow work we're looking at the

608
00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:11,530
shadow but we can sometimes get so tied

609
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:13,780
up in the shape of the shadow we forget

610
00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:15,130
that it's not about the shadow it's

611
00:23:18,750 --> 00:23:16,900
about the thing blocking the light so

612
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:18,760
the most important thing to do is to see

613
00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:20,890
the shadow see the shape and with Sao

614
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:22,360
that shape of the shadow looks a bit

615
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:24,580
like so then I can start looking for

616
00:23:28,380 --> 00:23:26,170
those blocks with my psychophysical

617
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:28,390
system remove the block and there's no

618
00:23:30,930 --> 00:23:28,810
shadow

619
00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:30,940
there's only light so again it's not

620
00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:33,070
that the shadow was something it was

621
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:35,980
form emptiness it was something unreal

622
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:38,320
appearing in form but it never truly

623
00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:40,210
existed it was simply an epi phenomena

624
00:23:45,420 --> 00:23:42,270
caused by something blocking the light I

625
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:45,430
don't have to make sense but well it

626
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:48,480
makes sense I just don't know if it's

627
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:52,570
stands up to the different data that we

628
00:23:56,370 --> 00:23:54,910
see out there so I'm totally okay with

629
00:23:59,630 --> 00:23:56,380
what you're saying I'm more than okay

630
00:24:01,710 --> 00:23:59,640
with what you're saying I'm glad because

631
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:01,720
let me make sure we look at the same

632
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:02,050
data

633
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:07,270
throw first of all there's a guy in the

634
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:09,910
university Arizona Gary Schwartz super

635
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:11,980
ph.d head of the department of

636
00:24:17,250 --> 00:24:14,110
psychology and psychiatry at Harvard and

637
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:17,260
Yale in all these places one of the work

638
00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:18,370
that he did in

639
00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:19,750
we've all heard about this work we just

640
00:24:24,409 --> 00:24:21,580
don't know the source of it is a guy

641
00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:24,419
goes out he gets a heart transplant and

642
00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:27,640
before he was vegan super healthy and he

643
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:29,320
comes out of it and now he likes pizza

644
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:31,690
and drinking beer and watching sports

645
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:33,880
and it turns out they go and meet the

646
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:36,850
donor and that's what he liked to do and

647
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:39,010
then we go to universe Virginia and we

648
00:24:45,149 --> 00:24:42,070
do Ian Stevenson's was famous for

649
00:24:47,580 --> 00:24:45,159
pioneering this work on reincarnation

650
00:24:50,639 --> 00:24:47,590
and they go and they have all this very

651
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:50,649
well carefully done research where they

652
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:52,360
go and they track down these people and

653
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:55,450
the reincarnation data fits and there's

654
00:25:00,480 --> 00:24:57,970
no way of knowing that again suggesting

655
00:25:03,930 --> 00:25:00,490
that there is an extended consciousness

656
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:03,940
entity that is real and has the ability

657
00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:08,320
to influence enter into in a way not

658
00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:09,940
much different than a spirit possession

659
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:14,350
enter into people's real consciousness

660
00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:16,929
whatever that is and effect it so what

661
00:25:21,299 --> 00:25:19,270
about that data so Alex I would agree

662
00:25:23,610 --> 00:25:21,309
with everything you said there apart

663
00:25:25,769 --> 00:25:23,620
from one word which is entity you said

664
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:25,779
consciousness entity that can enter into

665
00:25:30,389 --> 00:25:28,210
I would just remove that term the the

666
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:30,399
Buddhist view of mind is that is mind

667
00:25:34,919 --> 00:25:32,350
stream which is brilliant mind stream is

668
00:25:40,529 --> 00:25:34,929
a non personal continually flowing

669
00:25:42,029 --> 00:25:40,539
stream of our our kind of consciousness

670
00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:42,039
in fact beyond consciousness because

671
00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:43,390
consciousness requires itself to be

672
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:45,340
conscious or but so this that's the term

673
00:25:49,409 --> 00:25:46,480
I feel at that you translate that mind

674
00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:49,419
stream and the mind stream manifests

675
00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:51,190
into personalities in different

676
00:25:55,049 --> 00:25:53,289
incarnations and the reincarnation data

677
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:55,059
I mean it's amazing some of the stuff

678
00:25:58,940 --> 00:25:56,529
that Alan Wallace is bringing out who is

679
00:26:00,750 --> 00:25:58,950
a again there's a lot of the mind life

680
00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:00,760
Institute stuff they bring the

681
00:26:06,269 --> 00:26:02,470
scientists talking about alarm and stuff

682
00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:06,279
it's totally valid data kind of proving

683
00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:07,990
in many cases or seemingly to prove

684
00:26:11,399 --> 00:26:09,820
elements of reincarnation so I'm totally

685
00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:11,409
down with that but we can believe in

686
00:26:15,389 --> 00:26:12,820
reincarnation we can believe in

687
00:26:17,549 --> 00:26:15,399
consciousness from somebody's heart

688
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:17,559
being kind of imprinted and entering

689
00:26:22,019 --> 00:26:19,690
into another one's absolutely but I

690
00:26:24,779 --> 00:26:22,029
don't see how that links to externally

691
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:24,789
existing evil entities well I don't

692
00:26:29,070 --> 00:26:26,799
understand the distinction to a certain

693
00:26:30,450 --> 00:26:29,080
point we get to a matter of semantics if

694
00:26:31,660 --> 00:26:30,460
we say there's this conscious in the

695
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:31,670
stream that can break

696
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:34,610
and enter into this other individual and

697
00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:36,110
become part of their consciousness

698
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:38,030
stream and that's what I like about it

699
00:26:41,230 --> 00:26:39,050
is no longer possible

700
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:41,240
empathy my definition would be a

701
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:43,520
personal a kind of objective entity

702
00:26:48,670 --> 00:26:46,910
right maybe maybe not again words words

703
00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:48,680
get in the way and alls we're talking

704
00:26:53,620 --> 00:26:50,660
about I mean alls I'm advocating for

705
00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:53,630
here is more serious discussions about

706
00:27:01,560 --> 00:26:55,790
this topic the kind that we're having

707
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:01,570
here I don't want any fights but - but

708
00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:04,370
this conversation right here's what

709
00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:06,950
Tom's enzert was his take away from his

710
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:09,230
clinical work and again this is really

711
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:11,570
strange for a lot of people but to give

712
00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:12,710
you a little bit more background on

713
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:14,840
Tom's story as again he's got this

714
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:17,210
practice like he's a people helper and

715
00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:20,000
people come in there doing clinical work

716
00:27:23,770 --> 00:27:21,620
they're sitting on the couch I have this

717
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:23,780
fear of spiders I have this debilitating

718
00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:26,450
fear of going outside and Tom works with

719
00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:28,460
them through traditional hypnotherapy

720
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:31,040
and one day he's in the coffee room the

721
00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:32,840
break room and this woman walks up to

722
00:27:37,150 --> 00:27:35,060
him says I can't help but tell you that

723
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:37,160
I overheard your conversation about Auto

724
00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:40,340
Body travel and Robert Monroe and I've

725
00:27:45,310 --> 00:27:41,900
been talking to this spirit entity and

726
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:45,320
what this spirit entity wants to talk to

727
00:27:52,270 --> 00:27:49,250
you and he says hey fine I'm game I can

728
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:52,280
handle it I'm a PhD in psychology I know

729
00:27:55,930 --> 00:27:53,750
where to draw the line I have

730
00:27:57,850 --> 00:27:55,940
discernment he starts communicating with

731
00:27:59,860 --> 00:27:57,860
Jared the spirit spirit entity and

732
00:28:02,050 --> 00:27:59,870
pretty quickly he's off reservation in

733
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:02,060
psychology and he's taking Jarrett's

734
00:28:07,150 --> 00:28:04,820
insights and he's integrating them hand

735
00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:07,160
in glove with all his practice in

736
00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:10,100
training in terms of clinical therapy

737
00:28:15,550 --> 00:28:13,340
and jared is saying oh this person has a

738
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:15,560
problem with the past life that may be

739
00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:18,080
getting in the way oh this person has an

740
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:20,030
entity that has entered them that is

741
00:28:24,550 --> 00:28:22,130
their mother and their mother needs to

742
00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:24,560
move on to the light and then Tom as he

743
00:28:29,170 --> 00:28:26,360
heard him at the end he's actually

744
00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:29,180
developed a protocol and the protocol is

745
00:28:34,990 --> 00:28:32,030
a pre-scientific protocol but it's

746
00:28:37,150 --> 00:28:35,000
bordering borderline scientific where he

747
00:28:39,910 --> 00:28:37,160
says here's how we bring in the light

748
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:39,920
and we ask these entities to release

749
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,510
into the light and there is this stage

750
00:28:45,330 --> 00:28:44,240
of confusion where the data and then he

751
00:28:47,399 --> 00:28:45,340
says that other part

752
00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:47,409
and then some entities have no interest

753
00:28:52,259 --> 00:28:50,200
in going into the light so this is kind

754
00:28:53,639 --> 00:28:52,269
of stands a little bit in contrast to

755
00:28:55,619 --> 00:28:53,649
what you're saying I'm not saying he's

756
00:28:57,799 --> 00:28:55,629
right or he's wrong but I'm saying I

757
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:57,809
think we have to fully consider the

758
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:01,120
possibility that in this realm that

759
00:29:07,409 --> 00:29:04,559
we're in things do work in a way that

760
00:29:09,779 --> 00:29:07,419
that is best understood as these

761
00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:09,789
entities being real and I throw that on

762
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:12,940
the table and say what do you think yeah

763
00:29:19,139 --> 00:29:14,529
I mean eyes it's gonna sound like I've

764
00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:19,149
got contradicting myself but also the

765
00:29:22,769 --> 00:29:20,860
Buddhist view is that this is not the

766
00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:22,779
only realm of existence there are like

767
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:24,820
six realms of existence which can

768
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:26,529
actually be all contacted through the

769
00:29:31,399 --> 00:29:28,480
human realm if how to do it and these

770
00:29:34,499 --> 00:29:31,409
include like hell beings heaven realms

771
00:29:36,149 --> 00:29:34,509
Hungry Ghost realms of course animal

772
00:29:37,619 --> 00:29:36,159
realm and the animal realm human realm

773
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:37,629
of the only kind of ones that we can see

774
00:29:41,879 --> 00:29:39,730
with these eyes in this kind of spectrum

775
00:29:43,350 --> 00:29:41,889
that we you see but happily the eyes to

776
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:43,360
see it we could see these other beings

777
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:45,970
right and if some people do so if they

778
00:29:50,879 --> 00:29:48,850
have psychic capacity or perhaps the use

779
00:29:53,129 --> 00:29:50,889
of psychedelics that opens up our kind

780
00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:53,139
of sphere of vision a little bit and it

781
00:29:57,180 --> 00:29:54,820
seems like we can communicate with these

782
00:29:59,009 --> 00:29:57,190
but again this idea of kind of these

783
00:30:01,470 --> 00:29:59,019
aren't nfu these are beings these are

784
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:01,480
like sentient beings so it's not that

785
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:04,570
they're it's not like an entity like a

786
00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:06,730
spirit there these things are as real as

787
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:09,580
humans so from that point of view god

788
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:11,710
we're absolutely not alone there are

789
00:30:15,989 --> 00:30:13,840
there are trillions because apparently

790
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:15,999
humans are like the rarest we're the

791
00:30:19,710 --> 00:30:17,590
rarest of these beings there are way

792
00:30:21,869 --> 00:30:19,720
more Hungry Ghost beings and Hell beings

793
00:30:23,879 --> 00:30:21,879
and all this kind of stuff but these are

794
00:30:25,859 --> 00:30:23,889
sentient beings not entities they're not

795
00:30:27,899 --> 00:30:25,869
kind of they're not other things they're

796
00:30:29,810 --> 00:30:27,909
not spirits they're real but they're as

797
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:29,820
real as we are we just can't see them

798
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:32,320
charlie let me digress here for a second

799
00:30:35,909 --> 00:30:33,850
cuz one of the things you said on the in

800
00:30:37,499 --> 00:30:35,919
the TED talk kind of blew me away and

801
00:30:39,629 --> 00:30:37,509
was almost like a throwaway point for

802
00:30:42,899 --> 00:30:39,639
you because you're so immersed in lucid

803
00:30:44,909 --> 00:30:42,909
dreaming and in helping people develop

804
00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:44,919
that skill and use that skill in their

805
00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:48,100
life but you said lucid dreaming is

806
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:51,220
something that Western science has only

807
00:30:57,620 --> 00:30:54,730
acknowledged for the last 40 years but

808
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:57,630
Buddhist tradition Buddhist wisdom has

809
00:31:01,640 --> 00:30:59,760
talked about extensively for a thousand

810
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:01,650
years so do you want to speak to that

811
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:04,530
long yeah I mean I had roared the wisdom

812
00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:06,360
but I don't know a lot of it I mean it's

813
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:08,760
like I'm like kindergarten level as far

814
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:10,110
as Buddhism goes and that someone who

815
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:11,070
lived in a Buddhist Center for eight

816
00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:13,110
years and I still say I'm absolutely

817
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:15,180
kindergarten level but yeah I mean there

818
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:16,950
is a huge wealth of was if you look at

819
00:31:20,390 --> 00:31:18,480
kind of Western psychology it began

820
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:20,400
about a hundred years ago Eastern

821
00:31:25,910 --> 00:31:22,530
psychology began about two and a half

822
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:25,920
thousand years ago it's it's like the

823
00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:28,170
the kind of mind mapping these Eastern

824
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:30,360
traditions have done like eighty five

825
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:32,490
thousand different aspects of mind that

826
00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:34,620
they've mapped labeled and showed how

827
00:31:39,260 --> 00:31:37,230
you can experience makes a lot of kind

828
00:31:40,610 --> 00:31:39,270
of Western psychology seem to use the

829
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:40,620
term I just did kind of kindergarten

830
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:43,050
level and yet what it doesn't have is

831
00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:45,360
the amazing strides in neuroscience that

832
00:31:49,150 --> 00:31:47,670
we've had in the West and what's really

833
00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:49,160
exciting at the moment is

834
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:50,820
neuroscientists working with this

835
00:31:54,770 --> 00:31:52,320
ancient two and a half thousand year old

836
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:54,780
psychological system and kind of proving

837
00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:56,370
each other and that's where it gets

838
00:32:01,370 --> 00:31:59,490
really cool because I wasn't brought up

839
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,380
a Buddhist I kind of worship at the

840
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:03,360
shrine of materialistic science as much

841
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:05,220
as the next Westerner whether we know

842
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:06,690
we're doing it or not this is the kind

843
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:08,730
of religion we grow up in right so I'm

844
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:10,650
always really excited when you get kind

845
00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:12,870
of brain stuff proving the Buddhist

846
00:32:16,670 --> 00:32:14,700
stuff not that we should need proof but

847
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:16,680
it's kind of cool when it does so with

848
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:18,210
lucid dreaming when in the 70s they

849
00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:20,340
first proved lucid dreaming which

850
00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:21,870
apparently when I spoke to the guy who

851
00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:24,390
proved it it's dr. Caulder keith herm i

852
00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:26,580
said well what was what was the kind of

853
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:29,070
equivalent of you proving him he said it

854
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:30,240
would be kind of like us proving

855
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:33,210
telekinesis right now where there are

856
00:32:35,930 --> 00:32:34,650
some people who say they can do it

857
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:35,940
there's actually a lot of evidence that

858
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:38,310
it could be possible but it's still

859
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:40,200
completely out there whoo he said it was

860
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:41,970
like that it was like we proved

861
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:44,010
telekinesis and I had that same effect

862
00:32:46,850 --> 00:32:45,330
on the scientific community it took

863
00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:46,860
about ten years even though it be

864
00:32:50,270 --> 00:32:48,900
improved in 1975 it took another 10

865
00:32:51,890 --> 00:32:50,280
years before anyone's take me seriously

866
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:51,900
because it was just no one would touch

867
00:32:55,940 --> 00:32:53,910
it right and you guys Stephen Laberge a

868
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:55,950
few years later over at Stanford who did

869
00:32:59,960 --> 00:32:58,290
similar tests and he managed to get some

870
00:33:01,580 --> 00:32:59,970
stuff peer-reviewed and published and

871
00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:01,590
stuff you are probably much more

872
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:03,180
familiar with that research but I think

873
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:05,370
it helps ground people and I love the

874
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:06,090
way you said it

875
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:08,910
because we'd have this we're swimming in

876
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:11,340
this pool of Western rational as

877
00:33:15,530 --> 00:33:13,110
in a way that we don't even understand

878
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:15,540
we are but we are so I think it helps

879
00:33:21,050 --> 00:33:18,240
when we lock down what this science is

880
00:33:23,030 --> 00:33:21,060
like so they're doing sleep science

881
00:33:26,330 --> 00:33:23,040
right so they're hooking people up to

882
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:26,340
EEG s and they're of looking at their

883
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:27,840
eye movement and they're doing all the

884
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:30,650
stuff that you would expect in order to

885
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:32,970
understand this right it's it's real

886
00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:35,490
science yeah I mean my back in the day

887
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,140
the way they had to prove it in the mid

888
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:39,840
70s was or the kind of challenge the

889
00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:41,850
gauntlet that was laid down was the only

890
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:43,500
way you can prove lucid dreaming is real

891
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:45,330
is to send a signal from the lucid dream

892
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:47,490
state to the waking state saying hey I'm

893
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:48,930
conscious in here and that's a

894
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:50,610
ridiculous gauntlet to lay that most

895
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:52,050
people would have given up right but

896
00:33:55,850 --> 00:33:54,240
this guy Keith um okay I know it's real

897
00:33:58,700 --> 00:33:55,860
we got all these testimonials from

898
00:34:00,320 --> 00:33:58,710
Tibetan Buddhism Sufism told that Mexico

899
00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:00,330
even some of the early mess mystic

900
00:34:03,890 --> 00:34:02,520
Gnostic Christian traditions and so we

901
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:03,900
know this is real right so we've got to

902
00:34:07,910 --> 00:34:05,910
send the signal so he started trying to

903
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:07,920
send signals through the pinky because

904
00:34:12,020 --> 00:34:10,080
like the body's paralyzed during REM

905
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:12,030
sleep so you can't really move but you

906
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:13,440
can someone's get little muscle twitches

907
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:15,090
so first thing it was he tried to get

908
00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:16,770
his subject to go into a lucid dream

909
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:18,300
hook him up to the brain scan as the

910
00:34:21,890 --> 00:34:20,220
show they are in a lucid dream and that

911
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:21,900
the eyes are moving rapidly for rapid

912
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:23,370
eye movement but anyway the pinky thing

913
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:25,770
didn't work but when he was watching one

914
00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:27,210
of these people in the lucid dream

915
00:34:31,220 --> 00:34:29,550
trying to prove lucid dreaming at one

916
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:31,230
point he saw their eyes flicking left

917
00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:33,810
right left right really kind of

918
00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:35,250
synchronous and he woke them up and said

919
00:34:38,870 --> 00:34:36,030
what were you dreaming about

920
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:38,880
I dream about a tennis match and he was

921
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:41,280
like oh that's cool so he made the first

922
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:43,410
discovery the eyes physically porous

923
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:45,210
form to what you're dreaming about did

924
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:47,520
any thought okay right so maybe I can

925
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:49,230
send a signal a kind of a Morse code

926
00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:51,810
signal from the lucid dream state to the

927
00:34:55,370 --> 00:34:53,430
waiting's they saying hey guys I'm in

928
00:34:57,500 --> 00:34:55,380
here I'm doing the test I'm doing the

929
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:57,510
experiment and he managed to do that and

930
00:35:01,220 --> 00:34:59,370
I interviewed him actually at the

931
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:01,230
Science Museum in London where they got

932
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:02,790
the dream machine the original kind of

933
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:04,410
EEG think he used to prove it it's

934
00:35:08,330 --> 00:35:06,210
behind the kind of cabinet thing cool

935
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:08,340
place into you and I said so how did it

936
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:10,200
work and he said oh I spent eight hours

937
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:12,090
looking at this it was undone on

938
00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:13,740
paperback day paper read out kind of

939
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:15,270
like a lie-detector test right there

940
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:16,770
tick tick tick tick tick across the

941
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:18,510
screen all these like random eye

942
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:20,310
movements and after eight hours he said

943
00:35:23,290 --> 00:35:22,170
suddenly on the on the favorite when

944
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:23,300
come to me

945
00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:25,540
don't doom

946
00:35:30,090 --> 00:35:27,820
to doom doom which was the kind of Morse

947
00:35:32,250 --> 00:35:30,100
code thing the eye movement said to to

948
00:35:33,690 --> 00:35:32,260
to the left one right once the left when

949
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:33,700
you're dreaming and it turns out the

950
00:35:37,620 --> 00:35:35,440
lucid dream he had hooked us to the

951
00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:37,630
scanners had become lucid had remembered

952
00:35:40,410 --> 00:35:39,220
the task and over I've gotta send the

953
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:40,420
signal to the outside world

954
00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:42,250
so in the lucid dream he looked left

955
00:35:46,830 --> 00:35:44,620
left right left that was picked up on

956
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:46,840
the AI monitors thus proving a signal

957
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:48,910
could be sent from that world and I said

958
00:35:51,930 --> 00:35:50,710
to him I how did it feel when you saw

959
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,940
those eye movements coming through it

960
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:53,920
he's really sweet he went chali on those

961
00:35:57,930 --> 00:35:56,050
movies when they're in the NASA control

962
00:35:59,340 --> 00:35:57,940
room and they finally get there the

963
00:36:00,480 --> 00:35:59,350
other thing from Mars and they all give

964
00:36:02,010 --> 00:36:00,490
each other high fives

965
00:36:04,290 --> 00:36:02,020
I said yeah anyone it was like that but

966
00:36:05,850 --> 00:36:04,300
I had no one to high-five and I kind of

967
00:36:07,260 --> 00:36:05,860
leant over and gave him it we like that

968
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:07,270
he missed we had this like walk with

969
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:10,000
mist high-five and he went oh well 40

970
00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:12,850
years too late but thank you

971
00:36:15,930 --> 00:36:14,350
he'll be waiting for that high-five for

972
00:36:18,210 --> 00:36:15,940
so long but anyway so they proved it in

973
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:18,220
the 70s so it was real stuff but then

974
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:20,410
slightly more contemporarily in I think

975
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:23,290
with 2010 they did the first fMRI scan

976
00:36:27,060 --> 00:36:25,240
on a lucid dreamer now I've been in an

977
00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:27,070
fMRI scanner before when they wanted to

978
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:28,300
see if that changed my brain through

979
00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:30,160
meditation I'm sure I had no changes but

980
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:31,540
they wanted to check and it's like a

981
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:33,370
techno rave when they put on the magnet

982
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:36,640
that goes around those I was like how

983
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:38,440
the hell could anyone sleep in this let

984
00:36:42,570 --> 00:36:40,720
alone medicine but anyway this guy in

985
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:42,580
Germany managed to fall asleep in one of

986
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:44,650
these things have a lucid dream and they

987
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:46,690
were live footage of what happens to the

988
00:36:50,730 --> 00:36:48,490
brain when you become lucid and they had

989
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:50,740
theorized that when he become lucid in a

990
00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:53,170
dream the senses to do with self

991
00:36:57,540 --> 00:36:55,870
perception and self reflective awareness

992
00:36:59,070 --> 00:36:57,550
so I know that I am having experience

993
00:37:00,630 --> 00:36:59,080
would light up and they were proved

994
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:00,640
exactly right the right doors lateral

995
00:37:04,350 --> 00:37:02,770
prefrontal cortex just lights up like a

996
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:04,360
Christmas tree as soon as this guy gets

997
00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:06,850
lucid and they got that and then

998
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:08,380
suddenly once they had that all this

999
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:09,970
funding came through and now all these

1000
00:37:12,540 --> 00:37:10,480
cool

1001
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:12,550
lucid dream research things and when the

1002
00:37:15,870 --> 00:37:13,930
cool things they did after that was on

1003
00:37:18,270 --> 00:37:15,880
sports they wanted to see they were like

1004
00:37:20,190 --> 00:37:18,280
oh wait once you get lucid your brain

1005
00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:20,200
doesn't think you're dreaming it thinks

1006
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:20,950
you're awake

1007
00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:22,960
so we wonder with the brain laid our

1008
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:25,030
neural pathways in the same way as when

1009
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:25,630
we were awake

1010
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:27,250
wouldn't that be cool they were like

1011
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:29,200
yeah and they proved it they get people

1012
00:37:32,670 --> 00:37:30,730
to go in their lucid dream and practice

1013
00:37:34,860 --> 00:37:32,680
athletic disciplines like doing squats

1014
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:34,870
or a press-up stuff like this and

1015
00:37:38,430 --> 00:37:36,880
control conditions obviously the next

1016
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:38,440
day they check them essentially they got

1017
00:37:42,910 --> 00:37:38,930
better

1018
00:37:44,319 --> 00:37:42,920
they improved their physical sporting

1019
00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:44,329
performance by training in the lucid

1020
00:37:47,799 --> 00:37:46,280
dream because of these neural pathways a

1021
00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:47,809
neural networks being stimulated while

1022
00:37:51,609 --> 00:37:49,790
they sleep if this sounds like sci-fi it

1023
00:37:54,099 --> 00:37:51,619
kind of should I mean this is nuts but

1024
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:54,109
this is science now I want you to say

1025
00:37:59,020 --> 00:37:57,290
about entities because I realize I gave

1026
00:38:00,640 --> 00:37:59,030
you the Jungian view on entities I gave

1027
00:38:01,839 --> 00:38:00,650
the Buddhist view on entities I didn't

1028
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:01,849
actually give you my personal view on

1029
00:38:07,299 --> 00:38:05,150
entities which it's like yeah man anyone

1030
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:07,309
who's had like a DMT experience or like

1031
00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:10,010
moving into kind of psilocybin therapy

1032
00:38:16,260 --> 00:38:12,950
or ayahuasca or something these are

1033
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:16,270
these are not internally generated

1034
00:38:19,809 --> 00:38:18,230
experiences like when people are all

1035
00:38:21,309 --> 00:38:19,819
having the same experience of mother

1036
00:38:23,410 --> 00:38:21,319
ayahuasca coming over them and she

1037
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:23,420
appears in the same way and often is

1038
00:38:28,299 --> 00:38:25,130
offering the same guidance you thinking

1039
00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:28,309
this is existing did and Rick Strassman

1040
00:38:33,309 --> 00:38:31,640
does a clinical work with DMT and the

1041
00:38:35,049 --> 00:38:33,319
patients don't know each other and they

1042
00:38:37,210 --> 00:38:35,059
say did you see the purple jag work yeah

1043
00:38:38,799 --> 00:38:37,220
that's how the purple Jaguar - I can't

1044
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:38,809
get lost of the language on that part

1045
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:40,730
what you're saying about entities only

1046
00:38:46,089 --> 00:38:43,760
exists for like disincarnate granny

1047
00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:46,099
might exist or beings might exist like

1048
00:38:50,349 --> 00:38:48,020
an how how you were defining entities

1049
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:50,359
because I told me it seems to be the

1050
00:38:54,789 --> 00:38:52,250
nature of consciousness to disassociate

1051
00:38:57,069 --> 00:38:54,799
right and I think there's like there's

1052
00:38:59,289 --> 00:38:57,079
two biases that can go on here so people

1053
00:39:01,530 --> 00:38:59,299
who are very much into mediumistic stuff

1054
00:39:03,849 --> 00:39:01,540
and can maybe miss that about

1055
00:39:05,799 --> 00:39:03,859
consciousness and when I've interviewed

1056
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:05,809
people who work with me hearing voices

1057
00:39:10,569 --> 00:39:08,270
and listen to their accounts it does

1058
00:39:12,910 --> 00:39:10,579
seem to be like you say the traumatized

1059
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:12,920
parts of ourselves can separate off and

1060
00:39:18,789 --> 00:39:16,160
start to act as seemingly independently

1061
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:18,799
and anyone has ever had a dream just

1062
00:39:22,299 --> 00:39:20,720
knows that's the case like we talked

1063
00:39:24,490 --> 00:39:22,309
about it is if this really far-out thing

1064
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:24,500
I like voices in my head book like yeah

1065
00:39:27,339 --> 00:39:26,089
just fall asleep and you'll have voices

1066
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:27,349
in your head it seems I'll be safe from

1067
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:29,210
you so that seems to be like the nature

1068
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:32,089
of consciousness and at the same time I

1069
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:32,960
think people looking from that

1070
00:39:36,579 --> 00:39:34,400
perspective can miss the point that

1071
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:36,589
sometimes these voices deliver

1072
00:39:42,670 --> 00:39:38,930
information that the recipient has no

1073
00:39:44,289 --> 00:39:42,680
earthly right to have and I've met I've

1074
00:39:45,970 --> 00:39:44,299
had experiences at myself and I've met

1075
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:45,980
like whele way too many people who have

1076
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:48,530
had it there's also research in labs

1077
00:39:52,859 --> 00:39:50,690
like Gary Swartz and Julie by show and

1078
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,869
so on so that's what I'm what I'm

1079
00:39:57,359 --> 00:39:54,880
like the word entity I'm thinking of

1080
00:39:59,579 --> 00:39:57,369
like the entity could be like granny

1081
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:59,589
from the astral plane or it could be the

1082
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:00,880
pirate from the 17th century on the

1083
00:40:04,349 --> 00:40:02,529
astral plane or something else but are

1084
00:40:05,549 --> 00:40:04,359
you using the word entity differently

1085
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:05,559
there or would you disagree with

1086
00:40:10,049 --> 00:40:07,630
anything I've just said that there seems

1087
00:40:12,029 --> 00:40:10,059
to be like as best I can see a

1088
00:40:13,529 --> 00:40:12,039
coexistence of two different phenomenon

1089
00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:13,539
there might be reduce of the one

1090
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:15,190
phenomenon at some higher level but on

1091
00:40:18,269 --> 00:40:16,450
the level we're kind of looking at here

1092
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:18,279
it seems to be like there are two

1093
00:40:23,370 --> 00:40:21,249
categories as things that overlap it's

1094
00:40:25,980 --> 00:40:23,380
funny that term embassy is often used to

1095
00:40:29,339 --> 00:40:25,990
it's like kind of spirit possession and

1096
00:40:32,220 --> 00:40:29,349
entities and and kind of these things

1097
00:40:33,930 --> 00:40:32,230
that attach to us and the Buddhists

1098
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:33,940
fiona is actually these ascension beings

1099
00:40:36,749 --> 00:40:35,410
these aren't kind of embassies almost

1100
00:40:39,299 --> 00:40:36,759
like entities almost like a little bit

1101
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:39,309
of a pejorative term here match it's not

1102
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:41,049
that they're being that they're saying

1103
00:40:44,609 --> 00:40:43,150
it means as sentient as you and I but

1104
00:40:48,539 --> 00:40:44,619
they're existing in different dimensions

1105
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:48,549
of reality it's not that there's like an

1106
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:50,710
objective entity kind of clinging on to

1107
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:52,089
us in this reality that perhaps that

1108
00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:53,490
we're experiencing like an

1109
00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:55,390
interdimensional communication with

1110
00:40:59,579 --> 00:40:57,150
these other beings in other realities

1111
00:41:01,680 --> 00:40:59,589
but again I mean I get out my debt very

1112
00:41:03,269 --> 00:41:01,690
quickly with this because as Buddha said

1113
00:41:05,609 --> 00:41:03,279
like take nothing I tell you is true

1114
00:41:07,470 --> 00:41:05,619
till you find it's true yourself so like

1115
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:07,480
I can talk about the Buddhist view on

1116
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:09,970
things but really like my own view is

1117
00:41:14,339 --> 00:41:12,640
that I'm yet to find any proof of

1118
00:41:15,690 --> 00:41:14,349
external entities entering people's

1119
00:41:18,539 --> 00:41:15,700
lucid dreams or anything like that

1120
00:41:20,029 --> 00:41:18,549
however in the out-of-body state I have

1121
00:41:23,009 --> 00:41:20,039
a lot of proof that you can absolutely

1122
00:41:24,989 --> 00:41:23,019
contact things which are not you this is

1123
00:41:26,999 --> 00:41:24,999
because you have left the scope of your

1124
00:41:29,549 --> 00:41:27,009
own personal consciousness and are now

1125
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:29,559
in a space where you can absolutely meet

1126
00:41:34,319 --> 00:41:31,690
being just like I can meet you but

1127
00:41:36,329 --> 00:41:34,329
because you're in a disembodied form

1128
00:41:39,150 --> 00:41:36,339
you're kind of spectrum of who you can

1129
00:41:40,859 --> 00:41:39,160
meet is much much wider let me let me

1130
00:41:43,799 --> 00:41:40,869
take a run at this in a slightly

1131
00:41:45,539 --> 00:41:43,809
different way because you're being super

1132
00:41:48,329 --> 00:41:45,549
humble because you sound like a super

1133
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:48,339
humble cool spiritually enlightened guy

1134
00:41:52,529 --> 00:41:50,650
but you have a lot to offer and you've

1135
00:41:54,509 --> 00:41:52,539
done a lot of this work and you've also

1136
00:41:56,970 --> 00:41:54,519
worked with so many people so you have

1137
00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:56,980
the kind of advantage of having that

1138
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:58,690
kind of collective experience of so many

1139
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:01,359
people who you've taken through this let

1140
00:42:07,089 --> 00:42:05,529
me try and see if I can lay out another

1141
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:07,099
parallel that I've found between

1142
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:09,200
you and what time Zinser is saying and

1143
00:42:12,370 --> 00:42:10,220
then we're gonna look at one other

1144
00:42:14,489 --> 00:42:12,380
person I've talked to who is a medium

1145
00:42:16,809 --> 00:42:14,499
there in the UK Claire broad and both

1146
00:42:18,549 --> 00:42:16,819
Richard and I have both spoken to her

1147
00:42:21,729 --> 00:42:18,559
and she has a different perspective on

1148
00:42:24,789 --> 00:42:21,739
this as well but at some point Charlie I

1149
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:24,799
heard you say that it is understood

1150
00:42:30,910 --> 00:42:27,650
through the Buddhist tradition our

1151
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:30,920
ability to create the separation in

1152
00:42:37,630 --> 00:42:34,160
these ego states can lead to those

1153
00:42:39,969 --> 00:42:37,640
states actually becoming real in some

1154
00:42:41,859 --> 00:42:39,979
sense and I might not be saying that

1155
00:42:43,509 --> 00:42:41,869
exactly the way that you said it but

1156
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:43,519
that was the gist I don't think I'll

1157
00:42:46,809 --> 00:42:45,529
totally understand that question yeah so

1158
00:42:48,969 --> 00:42:46,819
maybe I'm not getting it I'll tell you

1159
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:48,979
what Tom Zinser says yeah so Tom sins

1160
00:42:53,499 --> 00:42:50,930
are like when he first started doing

1161
00:42:55,479 --> 00:42:53,509
this work he was working with people

1162
00:42:58,809 --> 00:42:55,489
that had disassociative identity

1163
00:43:01,839 --> 00:42:58,819
disorder right split personality kind of

1164
00:43:03,759 --> 00:43:01,849
stuff which 20 30 years ago was like

1165
00:43:06,539 --> 00:43:03,769
highly controversial and now it's

1166
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:06,549
accepted people have all sorts of

1167
00:43:11,289 --> 00:43:08,569
disassociation with parts of themselves

1168
00:43:13,089 --> 00:43:11,299
and sometimes it's very mild and it just

1169
00:43:15,099 --> 00:43:13,099
causes anxiety that seems to come out of

1170
00:43:17,319 --> 00:43:15,109
nowhere and sometimes it's like really

1171
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:17,329
extreme where people can forget the

1172
00:43:22,539 --> 00:43:19,609
other part of themselves while they're

1173
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:22,549
occupying this other space and I thought

1174
00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:24,650
I heard either and if I didn't we'll

1175
00:43:28,089 --> 00:43:26,150
just scratch all this but I thought I

1176
00:43:30,940 --> 00:43:28,099
heard either in your TED talk or your

1177
00:43:33,759 --> 00:43:30,950
interview with Richard you talking about

1178
00:43:36,609 --> 00:43:33,769
that the Buddhist understood that you

1179
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:36,619
could if you kind of put your energy

1180
00:43:42,190 --> 00:43:39,170
into it break off a side of a break off

1181
00:43:44,829 --> 00:43:42,200
a part of yourself in that consciousness

1182
00:43:46,989 --> 00:43:44,839
space that we all have and that that can

1183
00:43:48,489 --> 00:43:46,999
become and in your lucid dreams you can

1184
00:43:50,589 --> 00:43:48,499
dream in that and that you can kind of

1185
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:50,599
and it kind of becomes this total thing

1186
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:52,249
where it kind of actually becomes real

1187
00:44:03,099 --> 00:43:59,599
the same way little okay oh wow very

1188
00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:03,109
very esoteric and it's a trick but isn't

1189
00:44:07,870 --> 00:44:05,569
it also just kind of an ordinary in an

1190
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:07,880
ordinary way too so when we ever we hear

1191
00:44:12,849 --> 00:44:10,729
about tapa we think about ah this weird

1192
00:44:16,209 --> 00:44:12,859
big ghost that's there but don't we have

1193
00:44:17,650 --> 00:44:16,219
just like little tapas in okay let's

1194
00:44:19,059 --> 00:44:17,660
look at that that we can talk about yeah

1195
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:19,069
I mean looking at using too

1196
00:44:24,130 --> 00:44:21,430
as a metaphor of a kind of psychological

1197
00:44:26,259 --> 00:44:24,140
integration or psychological departs

1198
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,269
absolutely although it should be said

1199
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:28,640
that apparently tapas the top a practice

1200
00:44:32,739 --> 00:44:30,410
was real and the ability to kind of

1201
00:44:34,089 --> 00:44:32,749
manifest course away you would take some

1202
00:44:35,949 --> 00:44:34,099
of your consciousness and kind of

1203
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:35,959
project it into a court and that court

1204
00:44:38,979 --> 00:44:37,670
should be manifest but because it was

1205
00:44:40,269 --> 00:44:38,989
only an aspect of your conscience it

1206
00:44:42,279 --> 00:44:40,279
would be a bit of a zombie-like it

1207
00:44:44,289 --> 00:44:42,289
couldn't like you couldn't couldn't play

1208
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:44,299
poker with this thing

1209
00:44:47,049 --> 00:44:45,440
but it would kind of follow you around

1210
00:44:49,029 --> 00:44:47,059
and something could carry your bags and

1211
00:44:50,739 --> 00:44:49,039
stuff it is very utilitarian - that was

1212
00:44:52,779 --> 00:44:50,749
a big country some do to carry your bags

1213
00:44:54,249 --> 00:44:52,789
if you're gonna walk like five weeks

1214
00:44:55,539 --> 00:44:54,259
well I mean that that's crazy so that

1215
00:44:58,029 --> 00:44:55,549
people can google that it seems to

1216
00:44:59,469 --> 00:44:58,039
pepper it seems to have some existence

1217
00:45:01,870 --> 00:44:59,479
but yes let's look at kind of that

1218
00:45:05,459 --> 00:45:01,880
internal aspects of a split off parts in

1219
00:45:07,539 --> 00:45:05,469
the lucid dream absolutely you can meet

1220
00:45:10,029 --> 00:45:07,549
personifications and elements of your

1221
00:45:11,289 --> 00:45:10,039
own psyche and that's cool man I mean

1222
00:45:12,849 --> 00:45:11,299
that's you can kind of do work like that

1223
00:45:14,259 --> 00:45:12,859
through shamanic journeying and maybe

1224
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:14,269
through some yoga nidra work and through

1225
00:45:17,529 --> 00:45:15,680
some psychedelic work if you were using

1226
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:17,539
therapeutic Lee but the cool thing about

1227
00:45:21,849 --> 00:45:19,130
lucid dreaming is you can actually meet

1228
00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:21,859
a personification of your fear you can

1229
00:45:26,349 --> 00:45:23,630
meet a personification of your sexual

1230
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:26,359
trauma you can meet your greed you can

1231
00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:27,650
meet I mean I met once the

1232
00:45:31,059 --> 00:45:30,529
personification of my capacity for

1233
00:45:34,449 --> 00:45:31,069
violence

1234
00:45:36,219 --> 00:45:34,459
an hours crazy man and of course the

1235
00:45:37,689 --> 00:45:36,229
lucid dream feels as real as this this

1236
00:45:39,489 --> 00:45:37,699
is the strange thing about lucid

1237
00:45:41,289 --> 00:45:39,499
dreaming and of course that feeds into

1238
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:41,299
the view of the hell realms too but the

1239
00:45:45,099 --> 00:45:43,609
lucid dream feels absolutely as real as

1240
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:45,109
the waiting stick I mean you can taste

1241
00:45:47,890 --> 00:45:46,670
you can touch that the whole thing about

1242
00:45:49,749 --> 00:45:47,900
pinch yourself to see if you're dreaming

1243
00:45:51,249 --> 00:45:49,759
that doesn't work on a lucid dream you

1244
00:45:53,499 --> 00:45:51,259
pinch yourself in a lucid dream you just

1245
00:45:56,799 --> 00:45:53,509
feel pain and that's cool because you're

1246
00:45:59,199 --> 00:45:56,809
like pain but I'm asleep in bed I'm not

1247
00:46:01,089 --> 00:45:59,209
really pinching myself my dream fingers

1248
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:01,099
are pinching my dream arm and dream pain

1249
00:46:04,809 --> 00:46:02,690
is being evoke to my mind I mean that's

1250
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:04,819
super cool anyway but so in the elusive

1251
00:46:07,959 --> 00:46:06,079
dream state you can kind of meet these

1252
00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:07,969
lists off parts of yourself you can meet

1253
00:46:11,170 --> 00:46:09,680
these personifications you are own

1254
00:46:13,539 --> 00:46:11,180
psyche which yeah they manifest like a

1255
00:46:15,849 --> 00:46:13,549
tool but they seem to to exist they

1256
00:46:17,799 --> 00:46:15,859
don't really its form an emptiness it's

1257
00:46:19,269 --> 00:46:17,809
it's it's not real as a projection of

1258
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:19,279
your mind but you can touch it you can

1259
00:46:23,769 --> 00:46:21,890
taste it you couldn't interact with it

1260
00:46:25,779 --> 00:46:23,779
so the lucid dream said yeah we can meet

1261
00:46:27,789 --> 00:46:25,789
these aspects of ourselves and what I

1262
00:46:29,890 --> 00:46:27,799
always ask people to do always advisable

1263
00:46:31,509 --> 00:46:29,900
to do is to hug them back and really the

1264
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:31,519
whole teaching I'll be doing for last 11

1265
00:46:33,609 --> 00:46:31,970
years good

1266
00:46:35,230 --> 00:46:33,619
summed up in that huggy everything in

1267
00:46:37,540 --> 00:46:35,240
your lucid dream because if everything

1268
00:46:39,490 --> 00:46:37,550
in the lucid dream or at least 99% of

1269
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:39,500
everything in lucid dream is you then

1270
00:46:42,849 --> 00:46:41,119
whether it's a manifestation on your

1271
00:46:44,170 --> 00:46:42,859
anger or your fear your sexual trauma

1272
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:44,180
hug it because what could be more

1273
00:46:49,180 --> 00:46:46,880
symbolic of love of acceptance of

1274
00:46:52,660 --> 00:46:49,190
integration and hug so I often say hug

1275
00:46:55,390 --> 00:46:52,670
first talk later I love that hey Charlie

1276
00:46:59,160 --> 00:46:55,400
would you tell folks your story about

1277
00:47:01,060 --> 00:46:59,170
entering the hell realm and the hugging

1278
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:01,070
okay there are actually two different

1279
00:47:05,260 --> 00:47:02,720
ones but the hell realm I can talk about

1280
00:47:06,849 --> 00:47:05,270
and I think actually my Buddhist teacher

1281
00:47:08,770 --> 00:47:06,859
allowed me to remedy his book comes out

1282
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:08,780
his biography comes out next month and I

1283
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:10,970
think I get a mention he says about one

1284
00:47:14,620 --> 00:47:12,650
of his students visiting the hell realms

1285
00:47:17,859 --> 00:47:14,630
through the lucid dream state so because

1286
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:17,869
of this idea that the realms of

1287
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:20,240
existence are dreamlike including this

1288
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:22,490
one it said that you can use the lucid

1289
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:24,410
dream state and the outer body state

1290
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:26,210
which in Tibetan Buddhism is referred to

1291
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:28,609
it the special dream body state you can

1292
00:47:33,190 --> 00:47:30,410
use those states to visit these hell

1293
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:33,200
realms because they don't exist outside

1294
00:47:36,430 --> 00:47:34,970
of the mind but they're needed is this

1295
00:47:37,660 --> 00:47:36,440
you can visit hell realm as

1296
00:47:39,070 --> 00:47:37,670
realistically through the lucid dream

1297
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,080
state as you would if you actually

1298
00:47:42,820 --> 00:47:40,880
entered hell realm right

1299
00:47:44,740 --> 00:47:42,830
apparently so anyway I got this

1300
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:44,750
instruction to visit hell realm now I

1301
00:47:47,710 --> 00:47:46,310
wouldn't advise anyone going to a hell

1302
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,720
realm unless they're Buddhist Lama tells

1303
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:49,520
them to - anything else you've got no

1304
00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:51,650
kind of safety backup I was like visit

1305
00:47:56,589 --> 00:47:52,760
the hell and will I be alright and he

1306
00:47:58,329 --> 00:47:56,599
was like yes yes I'm mad or something so

1307
00:48:00,460 --> 00:47:58,339
I become lucid I don't know what I know

1308
00:48:02,980 --> 00:48:00,470
I was in a car that was it I was in a

1309
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:02,990
car and I realized no one was driving

1310
00:48:05,050 --> 00:48:04,160
the car something like that and I went

1311
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:05,060
happen that's weird

1312
00:48:08,890 --> 00:48:06,770
oh my god I'm dreaming so I noticed the

1313
00:48:10,810 --> 00:48:08,900
weird thing I became lucid I'm dreaming

1314
00:48:13,780 --> 00:48:10,820
right and then I remembered the dream

1315
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:13,790
plan as we'll call it from lama yeshe go

1316
00:48:16,570 --> 00:48:15,050
to a hell realm so I thought we how do

1317
00:48:19,359 --> 00:48:16,580
you do this so I don't know so I just

1318
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:19,369
yelled out in the car hell realm now I

1319
00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:21,710
want to experience the hell realm now

1320
00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:29,510
and then everything and it was so hard

1321
00:48:35,260 --> 00:48:32,680
to describe it was complete stuckness

1322
00:48:40,450 --> 00:48:35,270
imagine the dream pausing like shook

1323
00:48:43,390 --> 00:48:40,460
paused but now imagine that everything

1324
00:48:46,269 --> 00:48:43,400
that was movement anything had ever

1325
00:48:49,809 --> 00:48:46,279
did not exist the concept of flexibility

1326
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:49,819
or movement or unstuck knees did not

1327
00:48:54,849 --> 00:48:52,160
exist in that state there had only ever

1328
00:48:57,220 --> 00:48:54,859
been stuck nests in that point in time

1329
00:49:01,870 --> 00:48:57,230
and then time disappeared

1330
00:49:03,759 --> 00:49:01,880
so it was like infinite stuckness and I

1331
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:03,769
can't explain how terrifying the

1332
00:49:08,829 --> 00:49:06,880
experience of infinite stuckness is I

1333
00:49:10,539 --> 00:49:08,839
literally can't explain it is beyond

1334
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:10,549
words but it was the most terrifying

1335
00:49:15,220 --> 00:49:13,249
experience I've ever had because time

1336
00:49:17,829 --> 00:49:15,230
didn't exist so it would go on forever I

1337
00:49:21,749 --> 00:49:17,839
would never not be in it and it was a

1338
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:21,759
place where movement didn't exist and

1339
00:49:27,249 --> 00:49:25,609
then I panicked and I was like oh we got

1340
00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:27,259
and I tried all the trick in the book

1341
00:49:29,739 --> 00:49:28,609
and I just stuck there stuck this that

1342
00:49:31,390 --> 00:49:29,749
the thought seemed like in terminal

1343
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,400
amount of time probably two seconds and

1344
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:33,920
I woke up when I spoke to Lama Yeshe

1345
00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:35,210
about I was like but I thought the hell

1346
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:36,470
realms would be like the Buddhist

1347
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:37,609
descriptions were like fire and

1348
00:49:42,099 --> 00:49:40,130
brimstone and stuff and he says hell is

1349
00:49:44,499 --> 00:49:42,109
in my mind for you hell is stuckness and

1350
00:49:45,999 --> 00:49:44,509
I thought about oh wow

1351
00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:46,009
that is true I think for many people

1352
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:48,140
hell is stuckness you know complete

1353
00:49:53,289 --> 00:49:50,569
inability to move a complete being

1354
00:49:56,140 --> 00:49:53,299
frozen in time having no agency having

1355
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:56,150
no free will being stuck in a place of

1356
00:50:01,660 --> 00:49:58,640
no movement forever was my experience of

1357
00:50:03,309 --> 00:50:01,670
Hell so yeah that was a hell realm who

1358
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:03,319
knows if you did the same lucid dream

1359
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:04,970
plan and of course you could it'll be

1360
00:50:07,749 --> 00:50:06,170
totally different like a Christian

1361
00:50:08,979 --> 00:50:07,759
listening to this if they called out to

1362
00:50:11,049 --> 00:50:08,989
go to hell it would probably be a

1363
00:50:12,759 --> 00:50:11,059
totally different experience and whether

1364
00:50:14,319 --> 00:50:12,769
that would be a good thing to do or and

1365
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,329
final thing to do or not I don't know

1366
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:16,400
but that was a hell realm one as far as

1367
00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:18,170
the hugging the demons things oh I know

1368
00:50:22,989 --> 00:50:19,609
what else I'll tell you one that really

1369
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:22,999
crossed the boundary so I've done a lot

1370
00:50:26,349 --> 00:50:24,710
of this work well whenever you get lucid

1371
00:50:28,779 --> 00:50:26,359
if ever you meet anything scary in the

1372
00:50:29,890 --> 00:50:28,789
lucid dream it's you write everything in

1373
00:50:31,690 --> 00:50:29,900
the lucid dream is you so you meet

1374
00:50:33,609 --> 00:50:31,700
something scary you meet a monster you

1375
00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:33,619
meet a vampire whatever it's got a

1376
00:50:38,019 --> 00:50:35,839
zombie go and hug them show them love

1377
00:50:40,839 --> 00:50:38,029
because they are an external they are a

1378
00:50:43,029 --> 00:50:40,849
personification of some zombified part

1379
00:50:45,009 --> 00:50:43,039
of yourself or some monstrous part of

1380
00:50:46,809 --> 00:50:45,019
yourself or some fearful part of

1381
00:50:48,190 --> 00:50:46,819
yourself terrifying part of yourself so

1382
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:48,200
you go and hug them you show them love

1383
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:49,489
and then often they like dissolve into

1384
00:50:54,970 --> 00:50:52,970
white light will they like turn into you

1385
00:50:56,550 --> 00:50:54,980
hug them actually they then you release

1386
00:50:58,620 --> 00:50:56,560
the embrace and then or angry

1387
00:51:00,960 --> 00:50:58,630
you kind of pacified really obvious

1388
00:51:03,420 --> 00:51:00,970
psychological work here so I had this

1389
00:51:05,970 --> 00:51:03,430
dream about four years ago or something

1390
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:05,980
maybe five I became lucid I was at

1391
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:07,450
Liverpool Street Station was a big

1392
00:51:12,750 --> 00:51:10,330
station in London and I looked over the

1393
00:51:17,550 --> 00:51:12,760
barriers down into the kind of forecourt

1394
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:17,560
of the train station and I saw these

1395
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:20,530
people in black robes standing in a

1396
00:51:25,790 --> 00:51:23,680
circle around a pentacle or pentagram I

1397
00:51:28,740 --> 00:51:25,800
always forget that symbol pentagram

1398
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:28,750
pentagram right and I think okay shadow

1399
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:31,330
elements scary stuff and literally de

1400
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:33,910
Blasio flew down off the thing went them

1401
00:51:38,610 --> 00:51:35,410
I thought okay they're representations

1402
00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:38,620
of what a fear of satanic ritual yeah my

1403
00:51:42,060 --> 00:51:39,910
Christian upbringing whatever it is okay

1404
00:51:44,070 --> 00:51:42,070
just shadows stuff like so I see the

1405
00:51:46,770 --> 00:51:44,080
main one the main one looks like Charles

1406
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:46,780
dance who's a character who's a actors

1407
00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:48,400
been many things but particularly he he

1408
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:50,020
was in Game of Thrones people I know him

1409
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:52,270
and he was like main like ringleader of

1410
00:51:56,460 --> 00:51:54,370
the satanic cult thing so I just fly

1411
00:51:59,700 --> 00:51:56,470
over to him like ground level fly and I

1412
00:52:02,940 --> 00:51:59,710
hug him and I go my shadow and I hug him

1413
00:52:06,090 --> 00:52:02,950
and then I felt this incredible force I

1414
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:06,100
mean it was like being hit by like a

1415
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:09,610
sonic boom mmm-hmm and I literally flew

1416
00:52:15,150 --> 00:52:12,610
off onto the floor and then he levitated

1417
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:15,160
up into the sky like feet down to the

1418
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:16,510
ground so kind of levitate straight up

1419
00:52:21,660 --> 00:52:19,210
when I am NOT your shadow I am the devil

1420
00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:21,670
and just for a minute

1421
00:52:27,270 --> 00:52:25,540
I was like oh she's I really hope I'm in

1422
00:52:30,930 --> 00:52:27,280
a lucid dream now and not in an

1423
00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:30,940
outer-body or in some sort of thin state

1424
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:32,110
where you can cross over through the

1425
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:33,610
lucid dream sites or other dimensions I

1426
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:35,410
was like I really hope I'm in music team

1427
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:36,850
and then I just thought I thought on my

1428
00:52:41,130 --> 00:52:39,340
feet okay we'll look whether you're in a

1429
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:41,140
lucid dream or the out-of-body state if

1430
00:52:46,110 --> 00:52:43,810
you show this dude fear if he truly is

1431
00:52:48,180 --> 00:52:46,120
the devil which feeds upon fear you're a

1432
00:52:50,670 --> 00:52:48,190
goner mate so you were to stay fearless

1433
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:50,680
so I flew up to him and I grabbed him

1434
00:52:56,430 --> 00:52:53,110
again and I went there is no devil

1435
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:56,440
there was only energy and it was so hard

1436
00:52:59,820 --> 00:52:57,520
to keep my embrace but I was

1437
00:53:02,130 --> 00:52:59,830
bear-hugging mr.john energy and then

1438
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:02,140
suddenly falling Lee exploded into white

1439
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:04,000
light and then the whole dream explodes

1440
00:53:06,970 --> 00:53:05,710
a white light then I found myself in my

1441
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:06,980
bed

1442
00:53:11,770 --> 00:53:10,250
I mean that was a close one man I mean

1443
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:11,780
I'm still pretty sure it was a lucid

1444
00:53:16,210 --> 00:53:13,280
dream and not an out-of-body whatever

1445
00:53:17,859 --> 00:53:16,220
because of course what is my shadow what

1446
00:53:20,140 --> 00:53:17,869
is my worst fear is a lucid dreaming

1447
00:53:22,330 --> 00:53:20,150
teacher my worst fear is that one day I

1448
00:53:24,550 --> 00:53:22,340
actually will meet the externalise devil

1449
00:53:26,770 --> 00:53:24,560
but it turns out love is the most

1450
00:53:29,140 --> 00:53:26,780
powerful force in the universe it does

1451
00:53:31,630 --> 00:53:29,150
not matter whether it is internal or

1452
00:53:33,609 --> 00:53:31,640
external if you show the things fear you

1453
00:53:36,310 --> 00:53:33,619
feed it and it will have power of you if

1454
00:53:38,590 --> 00:53:36,320
you are fearless an attack it would love

1455
00:53:40,750 --> 00:53:38,600
with love with compassion that which

1456
00:53:43,510 --> 00:53:40,760
makes the universe whole there is

1457
00:53:45,099 --> 00:53:43,520
nothing to fear that's totally that's

1458
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:45,109
totally awesome and it's actually a

1459
00:53:50,020 --> 00:53:48,350
great kind of lead into this last clip

1460
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:50,030
I'm gonna play even super generous with

1461
00:53:55,060 --> 00:53:52,330
your time let me cue up this last one

1462
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:55,070
somebody said to me the other day you do

1463
00:53:58,900 --> 00:53:57,410
believe God is evil then because I was

1464
00:54:01,690 --> 00:53:58,910
saying the same thing I there's light

1465
00:54:04,450 --> 00:54:01,700
and dark in all of us I know evil exists

1466
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:04,460
I've experienced it but to do I have to

1467
00:54:08,109 --> 00:54:06,050
get stuck in it though I have to be

1468
00:54:08,650 --> 00:54:08,119
identified with it do I have to be ruled

1469
00:54:11,140 --> 00:54:08,660
by it

1470
00:54:14,290 --> 00:54:11,150
do I have to fear it no I don't why one

1471
00:54:17,470 --> 00:54:14,300
of my spiritual teachers told me is the

1472
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:17,480
secret of the ascent is to always look

1473
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:21,530
up so what you brought home clearly in

1474
00:54:25,690 --> 00:54:23,930
your readings and in your work because

1475
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:25,700
you talked about your work with the

1476
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:27,530
clients and the people that come see you

1477
00:54:34,859 --> 00:54:32,210
is that what if it's about raising the

1478
00:54:38,349 --> 00:54:34,869
moment that's in front of you and

1479
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:38,359
transforming that moment to a higher

1480
00:54:42,790 --> 00:54:39,710
state

1481
00:54:44,349 --> 00:54:42,800
I find that when you look at the dark

1482
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:44,359
side it disappears

1483
00:54:50,140 --> 00:54:46,400
because it no longer holds power over

1484
00:54:53,590 --> 00:54:50,150
then you can then start to reach up to

1485
00:54:57,460 --> 00:54:53,600
something more joyful some of my darkest

1486
00:55:01,480 --> 00:54:57,470
moments have led to my most empowered

1487
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:01,490
choices well talk about parallels with

1488
00:55:05,980 --> 00:55:04,010
what you just said but that it is clear

1489
00:55:07,990 --> 00:55:05,990
brought you some excellent books she's

1490
00:55:11,170 --> 00:55:08,000
been on Richards show and on my show and

1491
00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:11,180
she's a psychic medium and they're in

1492
00:55:17,109 --> 00:55:13,160
the UK Charlie what did you think I

1493
00:55:19,540 --> 00:55:17,119
thought it was great and it reminded me

1494
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:19,550
of reminded me of this idea of our

1495
00:55:22,110 --> 00:55:20,410
belief system

1496
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:22,120
right what Buddha said he said with our

1497
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:24,940
minds we make the world so if that's

1498
00:55:30,620 --> 00:55:28,270
true then if I have to choose a belief

1499
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:30,630
system I'm gonna choose the one says

1500
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:33,730
this is a compassionate universe there

1501
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:36,370
is no externalized evil you are a fully

1502
00:55:42,270 --> 00:55:38,110
enlightened Buddha who just hasn't woken

1503
00:55:44,790 --> 00:55:42,280
up to it yet and are the kind of raison

1504
00:55:47,820 --> 00:55:44,800
d'etre of our life is to wake up to our

1505
00:55:49,980 --> 00:55:47,830
inherent wakefulness to wake up to our

1506
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:49,990
enlightened nature now I know it's a

1507
00:55:53,610 --> 00:55:51,370
belief system but if I have to choose

1508
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:53,620
one I choose that one because that one

1509
00:55:57,810 --> 00:55:55,210
lets me go to sleep fearlessly

1510
00:55:59,520 --> 00:55:57,820
that one lets me see the best in people

1511
00:56:01,860 --> 00:55:59,530
that one lets me see the best in others

1512
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:01,870
I'm not saying it's true it's simply a

1513
00:56:06,570 --> 00:56:04,210
belief system but if it's true that with

1514
00:56:07,980 --> 00:56:06,580
our minds we make the world why not

1515
00:56:10,890 --> 00:56:07,990
choose a belief system that is

1516
00:56:12,660 --> 00:56:10,900
empowering and that says that we are

1517
00:56:14,220 --> 00:56:12,670
these fully enlightened Buddhas that we

1518
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:14,230
have this fullest potential within us

1519
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:15,730
and that love is the most powerful force

1520
00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:17,770
in the universe when I had that lucid

1521
00:56:21,420 --> 00:56:19,510
dream of the devil I was very thankful

1522
00:56:22,860 --> 00:56:21,430
for that belief system because if I had

1523
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:22,870
not had that belief system I don't know

1524
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:24,610
man about I truly believe that the devil

1525
00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:25,810
I could have woken up with some sort of

1526
00:56:29,310 --> 00:56:27,310
psychotic break or something so who

1527
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:29,320
knows but yeah I totally agree with her

1528
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:31,930
that they that once you face evil once

1529
00:56:36,090 --> 00:56:33,610
you face the shadow again what is the

1530
00:56:38,610 --> 00:56:36,100
shadow it is an epiphenomenon caused by

1531
00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:38,620
an object blocking the light the shadow

1532
00:56:41,790 --> 00:56:40,390
is not the problem here it's the thing

1533
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:41,800
that's blocking the light remove the

1534
00:56:46,650 --> 00:56:44,410
block and there's only life maybe evil 2

1535
00:56:48,930 --> 00:56:46,660
is an epiphenomenon caused by something

1536
00:56:50,910 --> 00:56:48,940
blocking my light it's not the evil has

1537
00:56:54,420 --> 00:56:50,920
objective existence it is that is a

1538
00:56:58,290 --> 00:56:54,430
shadow cast by the blocks in our in our

1539
00:57:00,660 --> 00:56:58,300
love maybe I don't know Richard

1540
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:00,670
any final thoughts before we wrap it up

1541
00:57:07,890 --> 00:57:04,890
here with our very good friend Charlie

1542
00:57:10,790 --> 00:57:07,900
yes I'll say something you can call it

1543
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:10,800
if you want like so a couple of

1544
00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:13,810
curiosities I actually wonder Alex what

1545
00:57:19,170 --> 00:57:16,180
you make of what Charlie saying about

1546
00:57:20,730 --> 00:57:19,180
evil and the shadow and there not being

1547
00:57:23,730 --> 00:57:20,740
an external evil given that you're

1548
00:57:26,070 --> 00:57:23,740
writing a book with the word evil in the

1549
00:57:27,620 --> 00:57:26,080
title and just to state my own

1550
00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:27,630
perspective where I'm coming from is it

1551
00:57:33,610 --> 00:57:30,680
ultimately I think I the same

1552
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:33,620
as Charlie in seeing evil as a

1553
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:35,630
manifestation off or what we call evil

1554
00:57:40,180 --> 00:57:37,970
as a manifestation of trauma and I

1555
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:40,190
actually think that we might look back

1556
00:57:44,350 --> 00:57:42,410
on the 20th century and say like the

1557
00:57:46,750 --> 00:57:44,360
greatest leap forward in human

1558
00:57:47,890 --> 00:57:46,760
understanding wasn't the stuff that let

1559
00:57:50,170 --> 00:57:47,900
us put a man on the moon or anything

1560
00:57:52,690 --> 00:57:50,180
like that it was Carl Jung and

1561
00:57:54,370 --> 00:57:52,700
therapists like Alice Miller who looked

1562
00:57:56,890 --> 00:57:54,380
at the great dictators and showed how

1563
00:57:59,620 --> 00:57:56,900
who they were arose out of child abuse

1564
00:58:02,710 --> 00:57:59,630
and the role that trauma particularly

1565
00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:02,720
for in early life effects as an effect

1566
00:58:09,850 --> 00:58:05,780
on later to me that the precursor

1567
00:58:11,950 --> 00:58:09,860
doesn't explain the the act so the

1568
00:58:15,010 --> 00:58:11,960
reason I'm drawn to like Tom Zinser is

1569
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:15,020
at least he has a complete theory like I

1570
00:58:19,930 --> 00:58:17,330
really respect what Charlie said there

1571
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:19,940
but to me it's somewhat incomplete it

1572
00:58:24,130 --> 00:58:22,130
doesn't close the loop tom Zinser does

1573
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:24,140
tom says look there's a force out there

1574
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:25,970
it's darkness it's like gravity right

1575
00:58:29,530 --> 00:58:27,650
which is totally consistent with what

1576
00:58:32,020 --> 00:58:29,540
the Buddhists are saying it's just there

1577
00:58:33,460 --> 00:58:32,030
it's not good it's not bad it's not evil

1578
00:58:36,490 --> 00:58:33,470
but then they're people that are

1579
00:58:39,130 --> 00:58:36,500
attracted to the darkness and do evil

1580
00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:39,140
things and he even contemplates and I've

1581
00:58:43,780 --> 00:58:41,990
heard other of my spiritual teachers say

1582
00:58:46,050 --> 00:58:43,790
the reason they're attracted to the

1583
00:58:48,970 --> 00:58:46,060
darkness is because they have blockages

1584
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:48,980
the light the love wants to move through

1585
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:51,410
them but they have some scara's they

1586
00:58:56,980 --> 00:58:54,050
have other blockages that prevent that

1587
00:58:59,440 --> 00:58:56,990
so that then energy gets redirected and

1588
00:59:01,450 --> 00:58:59,450
often it gets redirected in any way that

1589
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:01,460
feels comfortable at the time either

1590
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:04,880
addiction or attraction to things that

1591
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:07,850
get that out of us in an evil way

1592
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:10,250
but then at that point they really are

1593
00:59:14,770 --> 00:59:12,770
doing evil in the way that Charlie

1594
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:14,780
defined it and that's not even to what

1595
00:59:17,740 --> 00:59:15,920
Charlie said is it doesn't sound

1596
00:59:19,930 --> 00:59:17,750
different to me do you think it's

1597
00:59:21,820 --> 00:59:19,940
different or sounds like well hold on

1598
00:59:24,610 --> 00:59:21,830
because I think it's different when we

1599
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:24,620
then say that these people are in now

1600
00:59:30,550 --> 00:59:28,730
engaged actively engaged in doing evil

1601
00:59:33,130 --> 00:59:30,560
things that prevent the free will of

1602
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:33,140
other people being exorcised and then

1603
00:59:36,910 --> 00:59:34,730
here's the kicker to me that I think

1604
00:59:38,350 --> 00:59:36,920
everyone kind of likes the gloss over

1605
00:59:41,220 --> 00:59:38,360
because they're uncomfortable with it is

1606
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:41,230
that in that process of redirecting and

1607
00:59:46,530 --> 00:59:43,810
misdirecting that energy they are

1608
00:59:50,910 --> 00:59:46,540
nekton with energy that is outside of

1609
00:59:53,610 --> 00:59:50,920
them that is recharging and energizing

1610
00:59:55,530 --> 00:59:53,620
that energy so the reason they do the

1611
00:59:57,060 --> 00:59:55,540
satanic ritual abuse like this is my

1612
00:59:59,280 --> 00:59:57,070
objection like when I talk to you about

1613
01:00:01,410 --> 00:59:59,290
the guy Richard inside baseball there

1614
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:01,420
the guy from Ohio State University who

1615
01:00:07,110 --> 01:00:05,200
says hell yeah l ron Hubbard and Jack

1616
01:00:08,820 --> 01:00:07,120
Parsons were in the desert and they were

1617
01:00:11,970 --> 01:00:08,830
working with Aleister Crowley to bring

1618
01:00:13,830 --> 01:00:11,980
about the Antichrist and the Ohio State

1619
01:00:16,170 --> 01:00:13,840
University professor says well whatever

1620
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:16,180
people believe that's what's most

1621
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:18,910
important no what's important

1622
01:00:26,090 --> 01:00:22,290
first and foremost is is it possible to

1623
01:00:28,980 --> 01:00:26,100
direct your energy to beings entities

1624
01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:28,990
real things that are in these extended

1625
01:00:33,330 --> 01:00:31,300
realm and have them manifest in a way

1626
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:33,340
that interacts with this realm because

1627
01:00:39,180 --> 01:00:35,830
if that's real that is a different

1628
01:00:40,620 --> 01:00:39,190
reality that we have to deal with so I

1629
01:00:42,990 --> 01:00:40,630
don't think that that depending

1630
01:00:44,610 --> 01:00:43,000
philosophy right because I can connect

1631
01:00:46,890 --> 01:00:44,620
let's say I'm connecting with what could

1632
01:00:49,110 --> 01:00:46,900
be traumatized spirits in some way that

1633
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:49,120
people who have had a bad life here or a

1634
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:50,530
bad life there whatever they're

1635
01:00:54,330 --> 01:00:52,690
traumatized spirits and they they want

1636
01:00:55,860 --> 01:00:54,340
to do harm in the way damaged people

1637
01:00:57,630 --> 01:00:55,870
here want to do harm that's not

1638
01:00:59,880 --> 01:00:57,640
fundamentally different on some level

1639
01:01:01,590 --> 01:00:59,890
from me connecting with all the damaged

1640
01:01:03,210 --> 01:01:01,600
people here in a call to something like

1641
01:01:05,340 --> 01:01:03,220
the magazine company and going out to do

1642
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:05,350
huh so it's not about whether there's a

1643
01:01:08,340 --> 01:01:06,880
fundamentally evil it's getting together

1644
01:01:10,110 --> 01:01:08,350
with its traumatized people getting

1645
01:01:12,180 --> 01:01:10,120
together all the traumatized people so

1646
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:12,190
that if we can't get there to talk about

1647
01:01:16,290 --> 01:01:14,050
that then we're lost

1648
01:01:19,230 --> 01:01:16,300
right if we always have to talk about it

1649
01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:19,240
in metaphor then we're lost if we if we

1650
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:21,670
are willing to contemplate the potential

1651
01:01:26,610 --> 01:01:23,890
reality of that that just like people

1652
01:01:28,620 --> 01:01:26,620
can go through a crack house and connect

1653
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:28,630
with a bunch of very negative energy and

1654
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:31,090
wind up in a worse place well that they

1655
01:01:35,790 --> 01:01:33,610
can connect with the crack house in the

1656
01:01:38,340 --> 01:01:35,800
spirit realm and wind up with some very

1657
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:38,350
dark forces there as soon as we say okay

1658
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:40,000
that's on the table then I'm with you

1659
01:01:43,770 --> 01:01:41,890
let's start that discussion but right

1660
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:43,780
now we have to recognize that we're not

1661
01:01:48,090 --> 01:01:45,850
having that discussion science will not

1662
01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:48,100
allow us to enter into that realm and

1663
01:01:52,620 --> 01:01:50,710
religion as we know it will not allow us

1664
01:01:54,180 --> 01:01:52,630
to contemplate those things that's the

1665
01:01:55,410 --> 01:01:54,190
great thing about what Charlie's

1666
01:01:57,460 --> 01:01:55,420
bringing to the table he says hey I'm

1667
01:02:00,460 --> 01:01:57,470
part of the spiritual tradition Allah

1668
01:02:02,020 --> 01:02:00,470
in tradition there they're not only open

1669
01:02:04,510 --> 01:02:02,030
to it but they'll tell you they have a

1670
01:02:06,790 --> 01:02:04,520
pretty complete explanation of how that

1671
01:02:12,849 --> 01:02:06,800
stuff might work Charlie are like

1672
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:12,859
listening in I mean I just such a cool

1673
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:14,210
calm as that is my interviews are not

1674
01:02:17,470 --> 01:02:15,650
usually like this man they usually just

1675
01:02:20,319 --> 01:02:17,480
tell me about lucid dreaming this is

1676
01:02:23,530 --> 01:02:20,329
brilliant of nature reality objective

1677
01:02:26,170 --> 01:02:23,540
evil evil and subjective and objective

1678
01:02:28,750 --> 01:02:26,180
evil and subjective brilliant I mean

1679
01:02:31,059 --> 01:02:28,760
yeah I listen to both of you speak I

1680
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:31,069
agree on both counts oh yeah I really

1681
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:32,210
agree with that I also agree with that

1682
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:35,599
it's like yeah I've got anyone who's

1683
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:37,970
making like hard and fast claims about

1684
01:02:40,990 --> 01:02:39,410
this stuff I think probably to check

1685
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:41,000
themselves right but let's at least have

1686
01:02:44,609 --> 01:02:42,650
conversations about it let's at least

1687
01:02:46,270 --> 01:02:44,619
talk about these possibilities and

1688
01:02:48,790 --> 01:02:46,280
explore I mean what could be more

1689
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:48,800
fascinating than this right agreed

1690
01:02:52,569 --> 01:02:50,690
hey I tell you what we've used up a lot

1691
01:02:55,690 --> 01:02:52,579
of your time Charlie tell folks a little

1692
01:02:58,089 --> 01:02:55,700
bit more about the work that you do with

1693
01:03:00,579 --> 01:02:58,099
individuals I know we're in kind of a

1694
01:03:03,970 --> 01:03:00,589
strange state where workshops are

1695
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:03,980
probably not our kind of inflex but you

1696
01:03:10,690 --> 01:03:07,930
have a perfect way of integrating in the

1697
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:10,700
technology and consulting sessions along

1698
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:12,530
with the books tell people how they can

1699
01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:14,410
learn more about what you're up to

1700
01:03:19,210 --> 01:03:16,910
yes I mean I would advertise a whole

1701
01:03:21,010 --> 01:03:19,220
world tour I had finished at the end of

1702
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:21,020
November but this whether that's gonna

1703
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:22,250
happen it seems like the world tour is

1704
01:03:24,730 --> 01:03:24,050
gonna be right here in the zoom screen

1705
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:24,740
in my living room

1706
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:26,450
but yeah I've truly embraced that so I

1707
01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:27,680
would like like what loads of online

1708
01:03:31,150 --> 01:03:28,910
course they were like to lucid dream

1709
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:31,160
online courses one oh the shadow work

1710
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:32,450
online cause it particularly good

1711
01:03:35,829 --> 01:03:33,680
actually people been interested in

1712
01:03:37,660 --> 01:03:35,839
shadow integration stuff and then I'm

1713
01:03:39,970 --> 01:03:37,670
now doing a lot of live stuff so live

1714
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:39,980
five week online courses do my first

1715
01:03:44,079 --> 01:03:42,319
ever lucid dreaming retreat through zoom

1716
01:03:45,579 --> 01:03:44,089
where I'll be like waking people up four

1717
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:45,589
times a night just as we would do on the

1718
01:03:49,420 --> 01:03:47,690
lucidity retreat but you'll have like a

1719
01:03:51,730 --> 01:03:49,430
recording of my voice that you will say

1720
01:03:53,859 --> 01:03:51,740
that's kind of fun trying to use this

1721
01:03:54,970 --> 01:03:53,869
technology to make this happen but yeah

1722
01:03:56,410 --> 01:03:54,980
everyone finds it from my website

1723
01:03:58,540 --> 01:03:56,420
Charlie more calm

1724
01:04:01,030 --> 01:03:58,550
loads of online staff and Skype sessions

1725
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:01,040
and oh I've got this big online elusive

1726
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:03,410
dream of online summit that's mid-july

1727
01:04:06,849 --> 01:04:05,839
you'll find online when it goes up but

1728
01:04:09,490 --> 01:04:06,859
you can google it and there's me

1729
01:04:10,650 --> 01:04:09,500
interviewing like 15 or 20 experts I'm

1730
01:04:12,570 --> 01:04:10,660
trying to really be commerce a

1731
01:04:14,610 --> 01:04:12,580
about just how far lucid dream can go so

1732
01:04:17,010 --> 01:04:14,620
lucid dreaming online summit you'll find

1733
01:04:19,500 --> 01:04:17,020
it Charlie it's been absolutely

1734
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:19,510
fantastic having you on Richard thanks

1735
01:04:24,420 --> 01:04:21,760
so much for being a part of this and

1736
01:04:27,330 --> 01:04:24,430
helping connect me to Charlie so thanks

1737
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:27,340
to you both and goodbye thank you so

1738
01:04:36,110 --> 01:04:33,140
thanks again to Charlie for joining me

1739
01:04:38,750 --> 01:04:36,120
and Richard for riding shotgun the one

1740
01:04:40,850 --> 01:04:38,760
question I T up from this interview is

1741
01:04:43,130 --> 01:04:40,860
what do you make of Charlie's take on

1742
01:04:45,170 --> 01:04:43,140
entities that seem to be kind of one of

1743
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:45,180
the central points of this interview as

1744
01:04:51,140 --> 01:04:48,410
we enter this dreamscape are we creating

1745
01:04:53,180 --> 01:04:51,150
everything well of course we're creating

1746
01:04:55,670 --> 01:04:53,190
everything but it seems like when we're

1747
01:04:58,970 --> 01:04:55,680
really pressed we come back to this idea

1748
01:05:01,760 --> 01:04:58,980
that there are these external entities

1749
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:01,770
not just in this minute-by-minute thing

1750
01:05:09,830 --> 01:05:06,770
we call reality but somehow beyond that

1751
01:05:11,540 --> 01:05:09,840
so that would be the question pop on

1752
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:11,550
over to skeptical form if you wouldn't

1753
01:05:16,190 --> 01:05:13,530
let me know your thoughts or drop me a

1754
01:05:17,780 --> 01:05:16,200
note tell me what you think I got some

1755
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:17,790
good ones coming up I got some

1756
01:05:21,770 --> 01:05:19,890
not-so-good ones too but that's part of

1757
01:05:24,530 --> 01:05:21,780
the process anyways

1758
01:05:28,650 --> 01:05:24,540
stay with me for all of that until next